A FEW GAY MEN-RAW TRANSCRIPT

 

Cast

ALLEN-HIV positive-young-club kid-no electricity-hooker-told parents-had a lot of unsafe sex-35 pages

BRIAN-Masculine-afraid of AIDS-HIV negative-butch family-always gay-convinced he will die of AIDS.-30 pages

FRANK-Lonely-wants to be a musician-lives at home-needs sex but canÕt find it-feels like an outcast-30 pages

GABRIEL-Hispanic-mature-teacher-HIV positive-serious drug user-serial monogamist-32 pages

JOE-Texan-effiminate-sweet-innocent acting but not really too innocent-very sexual but slow to come out-23 pages

MICHAEL-The Jewish piss guy-45 pages

PATRICK-Academic-HIV positive-his lover has cancer-very intelligent-thoughtful-30 pages

TONY-Straight acting-perfect body-military past-lived straight for a while-51 pages

STEVEN-Very free-a big queen-hooker-very wild-but innocent-funny-20 pages

KENNY-Dominican republic-had sex with uncles-hooker-bashed a clients head in-kind of laid back-38 pages

Script

SCENE:  ALLEN-35 PAGES

HIV positive-young-club kid-no electricity-hooker-told parents-had a lot of unsafe sex-35 pages

SCETION 1-OPENING

R: 

Is he positive?

A:

No.

R: 

Does he fuck you?

A: 

Yup.

R: 

Does he use a condom?

A: 

Yup.

R: 

Does he suck you without a condom?

A: 

He doesnÕt suck me.  HeÕs not into dick.  He likes to get his dick sucked and he likes to fuck.  ThatÕs fine.

R: 

So you sucked him without a condom?

A: 

Yeah.

R:

And heÕs fine with that?

A: 

HeÕs fine with that.

R: 

Does he kiss you?

A: 

Yup.  I even swallow with him, heÕs the only one.

R: 

Why with him?

A: 

I donÕt know.  Because itÕs the best situation.  If he was HIV I wouldnÕt have to worry, IÕll just get like adouble dose of it, you know.

R: 

Do you want to be his boyfriend?

A: 

No.  IÕm perfectly happy being his friend.  I donÕt want to be his boyfriend.

SECTION 2-COMING OUT

A:

I didnÕt understand it until I was about sixteen. But by the time I was seventeen I was completely comfortable. See itÕs never been a matter of coming out with me.  I donÕt really speak much about my sexuality when I deal with people.  If people ask, "Are you gay?"  I tell them, "Yes."  IÕve never had a problem because either it doesnÕt come up or it comes up and they see IÕm just as normal as everyone else.

R: 

Did you have a fear that people would perceive you as abnormal?

A: 

No.  Because itÕs really none of their business.  ItÕs my responsibility to live my life. I moved out when I was seventeen.  My parents moved out to the east end of Long Island.  And I came to New York and lived on my own.

R:

 Do you get along with your parents?

A: 

Not really.  Not because of the sexuality thing, weÕre just two different types of people.  TheyÕre very conservative. Very clinical in a way almost.  TheyÕre just people I choose not to have a very frequent relationship with.

R: 

Was there a lot of conflict growing up?

A: 

There was and there wasnÕt.

R: 

How was the sexuality with them?

A:

It hit my mom kind of hard, but I told her in the worst way.  I told her that I was bi and I told her in the middle of a fight.She was just shocked.  She said, "Well, youÕve been so secretive and I donÕt know whatÕs going on.  But donÕt think IÕm not gonna find out."  I said, "IÕll tell you right now.IÕm bi-sexual.  If you have a problem with that, IÕm sorry, but youÕre going to have to deal."Her mouth just dropped.  Poor thing, I mean I feel bad, I can laugh about it now, but at the time it was terrible. She kind of went through a depressed stage.  But I told her, "ItÕs not your fault.  DonÕt you ever think that it was a result of you not being the right mother.  It has no influence of your doing in my life.  I donÕt understand it fully yet either.  ItÕs just something that is me and accept it."  So sheÕs come a bit more to terms with it but we still donÕt discuss it that often.

SECTION 3

A:

IÕm predominately gay, but I love women.

R: 

You donÕt consider yourself bi-sexual?

A:  

I feel kind of weird about it because I donÕt really get involved with a lot of the politics that go along with being gay.  ItÕs not like I feel ashamed or anything, but I donÕt have the hardcore pride that a lot of gay men do.  I think that sexuality should just be an issue thatÕs between you and your own liking.

R: 

Do you have a problem with the word "gay"?

A: 

It kind of makes me feel uncomfortable. Alot of people have that effiminate perception when they hear the word "gay".  ItÕs not that I detest being known as that because itÕs feminine.  I detest being known as that because itÕs not me.

R: 

But yet you only sleep with men?

A:

 Yeah.

R: 

But you donÕt consider yourself homosexual?

A: 

If you wanna call it that, call it that.

R: 

But the word makes you uncomfortable.

A: 

I canÕt figure out why.

R: 

Do you think it has anything to do with youth?  Do you think  younger people are more bi-sexual in their thinking?

A: 

I donÕt believe in bisexuality.  I think that either you like men or you like women.  I enjoy sex with one gender, men.  I enjoy intimate relationships without sex with females.  So thereÕs no real sexuality thatÕs crossing the line, itÕs only staying on one side of the fence.  As far as the youth thing goes, I feel that a lot of people are very confused.

R:

Did you have a difficult time coming to grips with your sexuality?

A:

I didnÕt understand it until I was about sixteen. But by the time I was seventeen I was completely comfortable. See itÕs never been a matter of coming out with me.  I donÕt really speak much about my sexuality when I deal with people.  If people ask, "Are you gay?"  I tell them, "Yes."  IÕve never had a problem because either it doesnÕt come up or it comes up and they see IÕm just as normal as everyone else.

R: 

Did you have a fear that people would perceive you as abnormal?

A: 

No.  Because itÕs really none of their business.  ItÕs my responsibility to live my life. I moved out when I was seventeen.  My parents moved out to the east end of Long Island.  And I came to New York and lived on my own.

R:

 Do you get along with your parents?

A: 

Not really.  Not because of the sexuality thing, weÕre just two different types of people.  TheyÕre very conservative. Very clinical in a way almost.  TheyÕre just people I choose not to have a very frequent relationship with.

R: 

Was there a lot of conflict growing up?

A: 

There was and there wasnÕt.

R: 

How was the sexuality with them?

A:

It hit my mom kind of hard, but I told her in the worst way.  I told her that I was bi and I told her in the middle of a fight.She was just shocked.  She said, "Well, youÕve been so secretive and I donÕt know whatÕs going on.  But donÕt think IÕm not gonna find out."  I said, "IÕll tell you right now.IÕm bi-sexual.  If you have a problem with that, IÕm sorry, but youÕre going to have to deal."Her mouth just dropped.  Poor thing, I mean I feel bad, I can laugh about it now, but at the time it was terrible. She kind of went through a depressed stage.  But I told her, "ItÕs not your fault.  DonÕt you ever think that it was a result of you not being the right mother.  It has no influence of your doing in my life.  I donÕt understand it fully yet either.  ItÕs just something that is me and accept it."  So sheÕs come a bit more to terms with it but we still donÕt discuss it that often.

R: 

So when was the first time you ever had sex?

A:  

I was like fifteen or sixteen and I fooled around with this kid down the block all the time.  Not really fooled around, I just sucked him off.Maybe once or twice a week, which for that age is all the time.  It was more of an experimental thing.  I actually donÕt think heÕs gay right now.

R: 

Did he suck you off?

A: 

A little bit, it was weird.

R: 

Did you fuck him?

A: 

No, there was no fucking involved.  I never fucked anybody till I was older.

R: 

Did you enjoy the sucking or the getting sucked more?

A: 

I actually enjoyed getting sucked more.

R: 

Is that still true?

A: 

My ideas on sexuality have changed so much, that I really couldnÕt say.

R: 

WhatÕs made this change come about?

A:  

ItÕs just been terribly stressful.  Just a matter of life overwhelming me.  IÕve done a lot in the past, and a lot has involved sex.  IÕve put myself in very difficult or very obscure situations. IÕve tricked for some time.  On my own, not through an agency. For the extra money.   When youÕre a teenager you want the extra cash in your pocket. ThereÕs no pleasure in it.  It gets to your mind after a while.

R: 

And how did you meet them?

A:

 I advertised on one of the phone lines and they would call me up.

R:

 And how much would you make?

A: 

At least a hundred and eighty.  I mean you have to remember whatÕs being sold here You have to act.  You have to create some sort of vibe thatÕs gonna make this person have money well spent.  And itÕs difficult.  It drains a lot out of you because  when youÕre in your own emotional relationships with people you place the two up against each other.  Then you realize that youÕre doing the same thing, just in two different types of living, it kind of freaks you out.

R: 

How many tricks did you turn?

A: 

Total in about six months  maybe like sixty of seventy.   I made three or four hundred dollars a week.

R: 

Was it always safe?

A: 

Of course.

R: 

Where did you learn about safe sex?

A:  

I went to some kind of class at GMHC.  I really didnÕt pay any attention to it, but I just knew that it was something that I should be doing.  Though I didnÕt have safe sex until I was about eighteen or nineteen. It didnÕt click to say, "Okay, you know this can be really harmful to myself and to other people" until I was maybe 19.

R:

 But this is only three or four years ago?

A: 

Yeah, this is recent.

R: 

So between 1991 and 1992 you were not having safe sex?

A:

No I wasnÕt.

R: 

And it didnÕt click with you, but you live in New York City?

A: 

Exactly.

R: 

How can it not click with you when you live in New York City?

A: 

It wasnÕt a concern.  Only recently have I realized the idea of safe sex.  I always knew about it. I could speak to people about it, like I knew the back of my hand.  But I never practiced it myself.  It was just too much of a hassle. I had a lot of random sex and thatÕs how I went through my coming out to myself, a lot of anonymous sex. IÕd find men out at clubs.  IÕd meet them and have sex with them.

R: 

And where would you go to have sex with them?

A: 

Mostly their place.

R: 

So you come out when youÕre seventeen, and you move to New York City, and you start hustling when you were how old?

A: 

Eighteen. I just read it in the back of HX.  I saw all of these people putting these ads out and I said, "Why not? I can have quick cash in hand and just completely have someone suck my dick."  And it worked. It was very cut throat.  IÕd ask them what they wanted and it was my job as hustler to create an illusion. The most uncomfortable was when I was about twenty I fooled around with this guy.  He called me and he said, "IÕm Jewish.  Does that bother you?"  I said, "No."  So IÕm thinking IÕm gonna get some Jewish queen.  I told him, "Just call me when you get to my subway station, cause itÕs too confusing for you to find my place and IÕll meet you."  So you can imagine my shock when I had to go meet this guy and he was a fucking Chassidic Jew.  So, IÕm walking back to my apartment with this guy, what people must have thought!  I mean he was totally into me, totally wanting to suck my dick.  Afterwards I sat there and I had a cigarette.  And I said, "IÕm not even Jewish and I feel guilty."

R:

 Did he take his hat off?

A: 

He took all his clothes off.  He wasnÕt fat but he definately was not attractive.

R: 

And he had the earlocks and everything?

A: 

It was so weird.

R: 

Did he have a big dick?

A: 

No.

R: 

Did he jack off?

A:

 Yeah.

R: 

Did he cum?

A: 

ThatÕs the main thing, when youÕre a hustler you want to make sure that youÕre the best that you can be because you want them to cum as soon as they can because once they cum you can usually leave.

R:

 Was he verbal?

A:

 No, I was verbal.The whole routine.  The whole score of debauched things that you say.IÕm so bad at acting it out.  Just bossing someone to suck your dick, completely fooling with their willingness, asking them if they want it.

R:

 Did you call him names?

A: 

No, I never took it to that stage.  I probably would have made a lot more money if I did, but under no circumstance do I feel comfortable insulting somebody.Well, in a way I do, in a way it donÕt.  You have to feel each other out.  When you play top you have to really be in tune to someoneÕs reactions.  You have to know if youÕre applying pressure anywhere or if youÕre emotionally slandering somebody.  You have to know when theyÕre accepting it as fantasy and when itÕs clicking in someoneÕs mind.  If you donÕt, then you can really fuck with someoneÕs head and it can really be damaging.

R:

 Did you ever have a hard time getting a hard on?

A:

 I did towards the decline of my "professional days".  It was very difficult because I started to feel gross and repulsed by it.  And after a while I said, "ItÕs not worth the money."

R: 

Did you ever get complaints?

A:

 IÕve only had one complaint, somebody told me he thought I was a different type. He said, "IÕm sorry, I expected something different,"  He gave me the money anyway.He was nice. People always ask me, "Who do you look like, do you look like anybody famous?"  IÕm like, "No, I look like me."  ItÕs always hard for me to descibe myself because IÕm just so basic in my thinking.

R:

Do you consider yourself a top?

A:

Sometimes I like playing the top cause itÕs easier.  But sometimes if the guyÕs really hot, if itÕs in my own personal relationships and the guy seems really hot, sometimes IÕll play the bottom.

R:

 While you were hustling, how did that work with having personal relationships?

A:

 It didnÕt.   I shy away from relationships anyway.  I have enough problems taking care of myself.  Only when I feel like I have acquired the acute skill of being well with myself completely, emotionally and physically, can I be in a relationship.  ThatÕs only fair.  Once youÕve given enough to yourself or you feel satisfied with yourself, can give one hundred percent to somebody else. I donÕt look for it.  If it happens, it happens.  If it doesnÕt, it doesnÕt. A lot of people say theyÕre drawn to me because I have this "mystique."  Which I will never understand.

R:

 What nationality are you?

A: 

My motherÕs actually from London and my biological father is from Iran. The skintone is British.

R: 

YouÕre very striking.

A:

 Thank you.

R: 

So what other horror stories.

A:

 Other horror stories?  I wanted one guy to give me the money first because thatÕs the best way, and he got all stressed out.  HeÕs said, "Well all I want is for you to suck my dick.  YouÕre making me feel totally tense."  And I was like, "Look, forget it then."  You gotta get the money first.  If you donÕt, theyÕre not going to give you the money, theyÕre gonna fuck you over. I donÕt wanna take the chance.  The way I explained it to them is, "You know I get the money first and then we just hang out and we have a good time."   ItÕs important to bring it down to a level so that they donÕt feel like servants.

R:

 What about cops?

A:

ThatÕs another reason.  If I get the money first, what did I get the money for?   Nothing.  You have to ask them, "What do you want?"  You never say, "I do this, I do this, I do that."  You ask them what they want, you tell them if you think it would be interesting.  And you always have to let them touch you first. Once they give you the money and thereÕs nothing done, what did they do?

R: 

So you donÕt hustle now?

A: 

IÕm actually thinking about starting it up again because I need the money. I wanna be comfortable.  I donÕt wanna have to worry about getting to work or about eating.  I donÕt need to have fifty TVs or five cars.  I donÕt need to have a huge penthouse or  a building to live in.  I just want a life that I could be comfortable with.

R:

 Do you have money in the bank?

A: 

I have no finances, period.

R: 

ItÕs week to week?

A: 

Most of the time itÕs two or three days to two or three days.  I have financial responsibilities and I take care of them first, but whateverÕs left is just like whateverÕs left.  I donÕt save money because itÕs very hard for me to get on my feet with saving money because I donÕt have  money to save.

R:

 Do you pay your rent on time?

A: 

Yeah. My electricity is off though, because I havenÕt paid the bill. The electric is something you can always  hesitate for a few months cause they wonÕt shut it off.

R: 

So what are you doing for electricity?

A:  

I use candles.  ItÕs great, because I go there and I sleep and when I get up I leave.  Or If  IÕm up during the day, thereÕs daylight.

R:

 Do you have any intention of getting the electricity turned on?

A: 

Oh you better believe I will.

R: 

How will you get the money?

A: 

I think I might sell myself.

R: 

So youÕre gonna hustle to get your electricity turned on? Does that make you feel desperate?

A: 

I can deal with it, it will suck but I can deal with it.   I can deal without having electricity.  IÕm not desperate.  I wonÕt  jump off a bridge because I canÕt turn my lights on.  But itÕs something very important that I have to pay and the only way to get the money right now is to prostitute myself. ThatÕs what IÕll do. I have heat and hot water.  I just donÕt have electricity.  IÕm realizing, I see a lot better with candles anyway.

R: 

You canÕt call your mom.

A: 

 I donÕt want that.  ItÕs my responsibility, I didnÕt pay the bill why should she have to?

R: 

So if you went and turned two tricks tonight and you got  one eighty a piece...

A:

 IÕd keep fifty bucks from the whole thing and pay the rest to the electric company.

R: 

You wouldnÕt just go spend it?

A: 

Of course not.  IÕd keep some money  so I could get a round and eat and shit, but I wouldnÕt spend it all, because itÕs not a priority.

R: 

Is it more important to you to prolong going out and turning a trick than getting your electricity turned on?

A: 

ItÕs more important for me to prolong it.

R: 

So youÕd rather live with candles than have to go out and hustle?

A: 

 I want electricity and I donÕt want to hustle.  I want it to be at a point where IÕll never have do it again.

R: 

It disturbs me that your electricity is turned off.

A:

 You canÕt let it disturb you.  EverybodyÕs like, "Oh my gosh, your electricity is turned off?"  But do I look like IÕve lived without electricity?

R:

 How much money do you have on you right now?

A: 

Like ten dollars and maybe like a dollar fifty in quarters.

R: 

How much money do you have to your name?

A: 

Ten dollars and like a dollar fifty in quarters.

R: 

All you have in the world is ten dollars?

A: 

I havenÕt got paid for my part-time job yet.

R: 

When do you get paid?

A: 

Friday.

R:

 How are you going to get by till Friday?  ThatÕs seven days.

A:

 I donÕt know.  Maybe IÕll borrow five bucks from somebody here and from somebody there.  But for this whole week I wonÕt do any drugs.  Maybe IÕll smoke somebody elseÕs pot.

R:

 How will you eat for the week?

A: 

I wonÕt really.

R: 

How is that healthy?

A:

 ItÕs not healthy.

R: 

You canÕt call your mom and say, "Mom, I have no money."

A:

 SheÕs the one who sent me the money.  She sent me like forty bucks.  ItÕs hard to keep up such a good positive vibe sometimes when thereÕs so much going on.  But I try not to let it mix.  If IÕm hanging out with people, they donÕt wanna hear about my problems.  So why should I make it a campaign for me to get money, I mean thatÕs my responsibility, IÕll do that.  So I have to make sure that I keep my job and I worry about my things on my time in my head.

R: 

But how the fuck are you going to get on the subway?  ThatÕs two dollars a day.

A: 

Three dollars. IÕll go to work and IÕll walk everywhere else until I go home. I know subway is guaranteed this week.  And my friends will give me a sandwich here and there or theyÕll let me eat at their place.  I canÕt  pig out on their fridge, but you know.  ItÕs good, IÕve gotten to lose weight.

R:

 You donÕt need to lose weight.

A: 

Thank you.

R: 

YouÕre not worried about getting through the week?

A: 

Of course IÕm worried.

R: 

How sick does it make you to think that youÕre gonna have to turn tricks to make money?

A: 

It makes me really sick.  There was one time where I absolutely could not get hard.  I told the guy, just give me like a hundred bucks for cumming, but I could not do it.  It was the last time I did it.  I would love it if I didnÕt need the money, but I do.

R:

 How much money do you exactly need each week?

A: 

I need the basics:  transportation, cigarettes, and food.  Then next comes any other sort of enjoyment.  So I really only require like a hundred to a hundred and fifty dollars a week to live on.

R: 

ThatÕs not bad.

A: 

But to do anything for enjoyment, three hundred a week. I am a chain smoker.

R: 

How did you become a chain smoker at twenty-one?

A: 

My parents smoked.  I never knew how to smoke and a good friend of mine showed me how to inhale, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, I canÕt believe my parents get this feeling."  I have a very addictive personality, so I kept on smoking.  I smoke like a pack a day now, but like up until I was like eighteen, nineteen and twenty I smoked two packs a day.

R: 

When did you start smoking?

A: 

When I was seventeen.

R: 

Oh my God.  YouÕre our nationÕs worst nightmare.

A: 

And I like men and I hustle for money and I do drugs and I smoke.

R: 

What drugs do you do?

A: 

 I have done every single drug other than mushrooms or mescaline.  IÕve smoked crack, IÕve done heroine...

R: 

Why did you smoke crack?

A: 

Because itÕs fun.

R: 

But youÕre so smart.

A: 

I know IÕm smart, thatÕs why I can smoke crack.

R: 

You smoke crack still?

A: 

Maybe every few weeks IÕll get a bag of rocks and smoke it. But I make sure that I donÕt have any responsibilities to do at that moment.  I didnÕt come to this interview high, nor will I go to work high.  I only smoke crack to hang out with people, itÕs fun.  Everything is a recreation.

R: 

Do you hang out with a lot of people in the gay community that smoke crack?

A:

 I donÕt hang out with a lot of people in the gay community. I hang out with a lot of close friends.  Most of them are straight and those who are gay donÕt live stereotypically gay lives.  They donÕt live in the gay community.  I was involved in the whole New York City club scene when I first returned to town. The smoking crack evolved from going to clubs.  I think if I wasnÕt involved in a particular club scene and had lived the life of a normal teenager, I wouldnÕt have done all of those drugs.  I wouldnÕt have smoked crack.  And heroin has been a big player in my life. I had a habit with it, not too harsh, maybe like a bag a day from May to letÕs say September.  Then I kicked, I just stopped. I completely enjoyed doing it regularly, but after a while I noticed that I needed to have a little more to get high, then I needed more money to do it.  So I was spending like ten to twenty bucks a day.  Which is like a hundred bucks a week, which is a lot of money, it adds up over a few months.  So I stopped.  I just went through like two weeks of total shit and I stopped it.  Now IÕll do it.  But like I know how bad the pain is to do it more than once, to have an addiction to it.

R: 

WhatÕs your favorite drug?

A: 

Heroin. A lot of creativity comes out when I smoke pot.  But heroin is typical of what they say, it boosts your esteem.  I remember when I was tricking I was doing heroin from time to time.  And it becomes very hard because itÕs hard to have any sexual feelings.  Very difficult.  But it replaced the esteem.  You can only imagine when I stopped tricking, I stopped heroin, how the brick wall hit me. I felt so miniscule, I felt so small.  Because I donÕt have this drug to rely on, and I donÕt have this money to rely on, and IÕve just spent months selling myself for sex, and IÕve completely  pushed any thoughts of it in the back of my mind and now itÕs time to deal with it.  So you end up dealing with four or five tons of hardship that you would normally deal with day by day.  It all hit me.  It went away quickly, but still. Just a whole bunch of self-esteem shit hit me.  The esteem that I wasnÕt attractive, the esteem that I was heavy.  I had no zest, no zeal for life.  I would sleep all day.  I would miss work because of it.  I just wanted to do nothing.

R: 

You know on paper, youÕre a bit of a nightmare?  YouÕre this young kid who smokes and does drugs and hustles and doesnÕt talk to his parents.  But in person, youÕre like the most charming, straightforward, intelligent, reflective person.

A: 

Thank you.

R: 

Do you ever think about how you fit all the stereotypes of  youth gone wrong, and yet youÕre not that?  Or are you really a fucked up kid and you just have me fooled?

A:

I am actually on medication.

R: 

For what?

A:

Depression. I had a bad childhood, I had a very abusive childhood because I didnÕt respect my parents. Not like burned with irons or anything, but I didnÕt have the happiness, and my parents kept back a lot of the basic life skills that IÕm only learning now. IÕm on medication because IÕve had a problem with paranoia, by the way I look, the way I react to people, etcetera.

R: 

YouÕre a very attractive human being.

A: 

Sometimes I think that, and sometimes I donÕt.  For so long I grew up feeling kept back from things, feeling left out of life. So the best way that theyÕve seen it possible for me to make a correction in my life is with an antidepressant medication, Zolaft. I take it nine times a day.  And thatÕs still not enough.  IÕm trying to get them to give me the Zanax prescription.

R: 

And if you stopped taking it?

A: 

Nothing would happen right away.  But over time you feel yourself going down.  Things get more stressful and unorganized.

R:

 Do you see yourself as a drug addict?

A:

 Technically I would have to see myself as a drug addict, because I smoke cigarettes routinely and I do have to smoke pot.

R:

 Did you smoke pot today already?

A: 

Yeah. This morning when I woke up at eight. I read the paper and smoke a joint, have a cup of coffee, you know, thatÕs all.  And IÕll do it later on.  Sometimes IÕll go to a friendÕs house and weÕll get absolutely stoned, thereÕs a difference between getting stoned and smoking pot.  I only get stoned rarely, I smoke pot daily.  It just relaxes me, thatÕs all.  As far as other drugs, if my life depended on it I would have to absolutely stop heroin and smoking crack and I would be able to.  But, I have that addictive personality where I will always go until I can go no more without doing harm to myself. If there was a pill that you could take once and it would give you a drug free life for the rest of your life, I would take it.  I would absolutely take it.  ItÕs all I would want.  Somebody  asked me, "What is the one thing that you want in life?"  And I said, "I really want to be drug free.  I want happiness and I want it without drugs."  I donÕt know.  I think I will stop, thereÕs going to be a time where I wonÕt do drugs anymore.  But IÕm twenty-one, I have time.  It just doesnÕt suit my life right now.  When I do drugs I have fun.  Drugs are one of my types of fun right now.  When IÕm over it, IÕll be over it.

R: 

Would you rather have sex or drugs?

A: 

ThatÕs hard.  I canÕt answer that. I think I would have to give up sex.  I mean I would have to because of the fact that through my debauched acts  I am HIV positive.  I would have to give sex up, and thatÕs why I have to keep things under such tight control because thatÕs an added responsibility.

R: 

Do you do drugs in order not to deal with being positive?

A: 

No.  No, I have the HIV virus, thatÕs all. ItÕs sad.  I have a very weird feeling.  IÕm very complacent about it.  Maybe IÕll be less complacent when it kicks me in the ass and IÕm in a hospital bed and really going through it.  But right now IÕm very complacent.  I feel that as long as IÕm alive thatÕs fine.  I donÕt take any medications for it.  I donÕt eat healthy and I donÕt take care of myself especially well.  ItÕs kind of almost my own fault, but I donÕt expect anybody to feel bad for me because I donÕt feel bad for myself.

R:

 Do you know where you got it?

A: 

 I know the time frame I got it.  It was during the club scene. I got it from somebody older.  I was eighteen they were over the age of twenty-five, between twenty-five and thirty-five.  I was sleeping with older men.

R: 

Are you angry about the fact that somebody could give the virus to a guy whoÕs eighteen years...

A: 

I donÕt know if they did it deliberately, maybe they didnÕt know.  These days a lot of people know and they still have unprotected sex and donÕt give a shit, which is completely wrong and that makes me furious.  But a few years ago, back when I had contracted it more of the population didnÕt know that they had it, and it may have been that.  So you know, if they knew and they gave it to me, then God will take care of them.  They will have their time, it will come back to them three fold.  But if they didnÕt, then I empathise with them and understand what theyÕre going through.

R: 

Have you given it to anyone?

A: 

No.  I have protected sex.ThereÕs no other way.  That is your one responsibility.  If IÕm going to be with somebody sexually, I tell them and IÕve never had anybody bow out. IÕve actually had people who are sexually aware and also believe that thereÕs no problem with blow jobs.  You know thereÕs such a miniscule risk.  It could come back in ten years and they could say all this time we didnÕt think that you could get AIDS from sucking dick, but itÕs really an eighty percent chance, and IÕll be like whoa.  But you know thatÕs the only risk I take.  But as far as anal sex, thereÕs no way other than with a condom.

R: 

So how did you find out you were HIV positive?

A: 

I passed out on 8th Avenue and 14th Street and woke up at Beth Israel Hospital.  I had been up for two or three days on coke.  I was on my way to go home and go to bed. I had been going to school during this time.  I would go to school, come back during class, get high with like ten people in one apartment, go to school, go to work, I was exhausted.  I hadnÕt gotten enough sleep so I passed out and woke up in the hospital.  And a few weeks earlier I had gone to my primary doctor and said you know, "Test me.  Give me all the tests that you can give to somebody for anything."  So I got all the tests and I called her and asked her to call the nurses back here and let them know and theyÕll tell me, because I didnÕt speak to her personally.  And on the day that I was going to get out, they had mentioned it to me that I was HIV positive. They said, "How do you think that certain things will affect your life using drugs, do you think that you would revert to using drugs?"  They  wanted to put me in rehab, not rehab but get help, they said, "Do you think that you would return to using drugs if this circumstance came up, or this circumstance came up?"  And the the doctor was like, "What if somebody was to tell you that you had AIDS?"  I said, "Well you know the results, obviously."   He said, "Yes."  I was like whoof.  I was taken back.  And after an hour or two I left the hospital, I was discharged.  I couldnÕt eat for the whole day, I just had this really weird feeling.  I was upset, I cried for a little bit. The feeling was just overwhelming.  It wasnÕt like "oh my gosh, IÕm going to die" feeling.  I said to myself immediately, "I cannot give up on life, I cannot."  It was just something overwhelming that I didnÕt understand.  Something that IÕve heard so much about and have lectured so many people about and been so blind about it when involving myself with that responsibility.  And now it hit me.  You know?  It came back to me.  I had to deal with it and I did deal with it very quickly. I just got over it.  I said "Okay, IÕm not dead.  IÕm not ill.  Why freak out about it?  ThereÕs no point.  I have enough stress to deal with.  IÕm not making it a problem.  ItÕs something I have and something IÕll have to deal with.  But IÕm not gonna cause myself stress over it."

R: 

Do you get depressed about it?

A: 

No I donÕt.  A lot of my friends do.  Because they donÕt wanna see me go and they think IÕm very complacent about it.  Which I probably am.  They say, "How can we respect you if you donÕt have any respect for yourself?"  I say, "I have plenty of respect for myself."

R: 

How do they want you to live?

A: 

 Take care of myself, take medications, eat the right foods.  But IÕm lazy.  IÕm allowed to be lazy. IÕm twenty-one.

R: 

 Are you seeing any kind of counselor, or a doctor?

A:

 I see a doctor for my health, I see a therapist and I see a psychiatrist.

R: 

Do your parents know?

A: 

My mom does.She got very upset.  I remember when I told her I was bi she said, "YouÕre gonna end up on a dead end street."  So I didnÕt tell her for a while.  I didnÕt want her to be right, but I knew she was.  And when I told her I said, "You can say, ŌI told you so.Õ If you want to." She knew I would get myself into a situation further on in life where I would contract HIV.  And I did.  That attitude of thinking I can do everything, I thought it would get me everywhere, but it got me nowhere.

R: 

So you didnÕt think you would contract HIV?

A:

 No.  I just didnÕt think about it.  I always thought about how hot the guy was who I was getting it on with.  I mean if youÕre like with this totally hot guy, and like the vibe is right you just wanna get it on ASAP.  Now I have to wait.  I canÕt have random sex as much as I used to, because I have to find somebody that I know wonÕt flip out with me telling them I have HIV.  I have to know somebody who can handle the responsibility.  If IÕm going to be in a relationship or if IÕm going to be in a sexual experience I have to just know somebody who is also totally responsible.  So it takes a little longer.  But as far as hustling, itÕs always protected, thatÕs the only way, I donÕt tell the clients.

R: 

What if they ask you?

A:

 If they ask me, I lie.  And thatÕs bad, but IÕm protected, I have protected sex.

R:

 How often do they ask you?

A:

 They donÕt.  ThatÕs the scary thing.  People donÕt ask in New York.  They donÕt ask if youÕre clean.

R:

 But when they do ask...

A: 

Only once or twice have I been asked.

R:

 And you lied?

A: 

And I lied.

R: 

And how did you feel after you lied?

A: 

Well I had protected sex, and I felt like I told a white lie.  I donÕt feel like I really told something breaking the bank.  I donÕt think it was devasting.

R:

 What do you think that they would say if they knew that you had lied to them?

A: 

IÕm sure that they would immediately think, "whore with AIDS."

R: 

Have you ever lied to a sexual partner where money was not involved?

A: 

After I was aware of it, never.

R: 

Why would you lie to a client?

A:

 ItÕs greed itÕs in all of us.  IÕm not happy about it, donÕt get me wrong.  ItÕs one part of my personality that I donÕt like.  But it comes out, greed comes out in all of us.  I know about the money, I know that I can get a hundred and eighty bucks for letting some guy suck me off for a half hour.  As long as I keep some sort of regiment about using safe sex, then I kill two birds with one stone, I feel.  IÕve accomplished how to make money and IÕve accomplished safe sex.

R: 

So you feel like the hundred and eighty dollars is worth the lie?

A: 

ItÕs really not, I know that itÕs not.  If you wanna take it down to a technicality, itÕs not worth the lie.  But, at times, I donÕt think that.  At times that responsibility doesnÕt click into my head.  And I just say, "Fuck it."

R: 

What in your psyche allows you to put a one hundred dollar price tag on someone elseÕs life?

A: 

When you put it in that light.

R: 

IÕm not judging you, IÕm asking.

A: 

I get defensive in these situations.

R: 

ThatÕs okay. Be defensive.

A: 

No, I wonÕt.  It throws a lot of guilt, because I am completely aware of everything that I do, I am aware of how I do something, but a lot of times IÕm not aware of why.

R: 

Do you not feel any responsibility to take care of them, if theyÕre not mature enough to take care of themselves?

A: 

No.

R: 

DonÕt you wish that somebody would have taken care of you?

A:

 If you wanna use it in that terms, no.  Because to do other peopleÕs responsibility, is not my problem, you know?

R: 

Well it is your problem, because someone was irresponsible with you and had unsafe sex with you, and now youÕre positive.  DonÕt you feel like you need to break that chain?

A:  

I donÕt know if they were irresponsible with me.  IÕm not putting the blame on anybody for that. I donÕt blame somebody for my problems.  My problems are my problems.  Whatever happens, thatÕs good or bad, involves you.  Whatever involves you, you have to take some responsibility for it.  So it involves me that I got HIV.  But itÕs not my responsibility to blame somebody for it.  Why blame somebody?  I was just as responsible for not saying use a condom.  I didnÕt hold up on my part.  I have to say that some of what happened is my fault.  ItÕs my responsibility.  IÕll take responsibility for the things that I do and act responsibly with the things that I do, the best that I can.  Why should I do it for anybody. People need to do it for themselves, they need to live life for themselves.

R: 

So hereÕs the big question:  Is lying to other people that youÕre about to have sex with about your HIV status, is that personally responsible?

A: 

In a way.  I should have told them.

R: 

So you feel like you did something wrong?

A: 

At times I feel like I did something wrong, but I think of it very briefly.

R: 

Do you really see it as a little white lie?

A: 

I know itÕs big.  But thatÕs one flaw in my personality that IÕm hoping to work on, that one day I will realize when I deal with people, that itÕs big.  I will realize that no matter money or no money, people have to know in order for me to have sex with them.  ItÕs an immature quality to think the way I think.  But nobodyÕs perfect.

R:

 ItÕs hard for me to reconcile the person that is sitting here, you seem so intelligent, so responsible, so mature, yet you take heroin and do coke and hustle and donÕt tell people that youÕre positive and lie and...itÕs hard for me to reconcile these two people in my head.

A: 

TheyÕre completely opposite. ItÕs almost like I live two lives.

R: 

Do you feel like one of them is truer?

A: 

I feel the responsibility side is truer.

R: 

Do you feel that those two sides are at war with each other?

A: 

No, I donÕt feel that yet, I may in the future.

R: 

Do you feel like one of the sides is going to win?

A: 

I know which side is going to win.The responsible side.  I have a strong faith in God,  I was brought up with a strong religious background, and itÕs taught me some basics.  I even went to a private high school which was Lutheran. I believe God is the one who put us on this earth and I believe that God works through us.  I also believe that everybody sins.  So I donÕt use it as an excuse to say, "Okay, IÕm gonna do a line of coke and fuck this guy without a condom, whatever, because Jesus died for my sins."  No, IÕm not going to do that.  Everybody makes mistakes and God realizes that, everybody commits sins and God realizes that.  But as long as you keep in mind and are sorry for the things that you do.

R: 

Is homosexuality a sin to you?

A: 

No. Through my religious teachings, itÕs known as a sin to me.  I know that itÕs taught in the Bible as a sin.  But if God wants to look at it as a sin, then IÕm going to be forgiven for that sin, because I have belief in God and He still loves me.

R: 

Do you believe in God as like a real person that youÕre going to meet one day?

A: 

No.  I donÕt think IÕm going to be sitting on a stage discussing my life or any other issues after I die.

R: 

Do you think youÕre going somewhere when you die?

A: 

 I think IÕm going to heaven.

R:

 You think youÕll exist in a conscious state?

A: 

Yes.

R: 

You wonÕt just turn to dirt?

A: 

No. But, you really canÕt tell because it hasnÕt happened yet.

R:

 WhatÕs lead you to believe in God?

A: 

How else did I get here?  I have to believe that I was put here, by some reason. I didnÕt just happen as a matter of nature.

R: 

Do you pray?

A: 

Of course I pray.  And I feel a lot better after I do, and not just for getting something off my chest, I feel like IÕm actually listened to.  Sometimes I pray for happiness, not just for me but for others.  If people are going through hard situations I pray for them.

R:

 How much happiness is in your life right now?

A: 

IÕd say about fifty percent.  Half the time IÕm happy, but an equal fifty percent IÕm not.

R:

 Does it change from moment to moment, or from hour to hour?

A: 

It changes from circumstance to circumstance.

R: 

Are you happy right now, sitting here?

A: 

Perfectly happy.

R: 

Were you happy riding the subway over here?

A: 

Yeah I was happy.

R: 

Were you happy when you woke up this morning?

A: 

I was happy.

R: 

Were you happy last night?

A: 

I donÕt know, what was I doing last night?  Yeah I was generally happy.

R: 

When was the last time you experienced real unhappiness?

A: 

When I stopped doing heroin hardcore and stopped the sex.

R: 

Why were you unhappy?

A: 

Because I hadnÕt dealt with things day to day.  I was completely overwhelmed.

R:

 How big a part of your overwhelming was your HIV status?

A: 

It was big.  But it didnÕt like knock me down.

R: 

How often do you think about that?

A: 

Rarely.  LetÕs say like ten to twenty percent of the time.

R: 

You donÕt dwell on it?

A:

 No, I rarely think of it.

R:

 Do you talk to other people who are HIV positive?

A: 

No.

R: 

Do you know other people who are HIV positive?

A:

 No.

R: 

You know no one?

A:

 No one.

R: 

You know no other person who is HIV positive?

A: 

No.  Not in my life.  You know what, I probably do and donÕt know it.

R:

 Have you met anybody else whoÕs HIV positive?

A: 

Yes, I have.  I met this great guy on the train and he was HIV positive. He wrote me a letter and told me, before I even kissed him.  I used to live in North Carolina.  And I was up planning to return back to New York.  I was taking care of business and finance up here and I met somebody on the train  and I went back to North Carolina and kept in contact through literary means.  So he wrote me and the first letter he wrote me he told me that he was HIV positive.  And I thought that was just super cool.  But you know, things just didnÕt work out, two people just didnÕt click with their interests, so nothing ever happened.

R: 

But you admired him for telling you?

A: 

Of course, somebody else actually took the stand.  That made a big difference in my life.It definately put a little spring in my step as far as telling people.  It made me feel a bit more comfortable about it, which is why I should go to groups, because there are all these people dealing with it.  But, on the other hand, why sit around a room and dwell on it?  Yes youÕre there for support for each other, but  really you should be taking care of yourself.  You should be responsible.

R:

 Do you feel alone?

A: 

No.  I feel lonely at times, but thatÕs different from feeling alone.  I know that IÕm alone.

R: 

Do you feel like a victim?

A:  

I was a victim of circumstance, the circumstance being the epidemic, but I wasnÕt a victim of anybodyÕs evil revenge or anybodyÕs knowing, as far as I know.  Like I said, if somebody did give me HIV intentionally, then God will deal with them for that.  I canÕt hate them, I have to turn the other cheek.

R: 

Do you think youÕre a good person?

A: 

I try to be.  I know sometimes I do a lot of things that donÕt make me a good person.  I try the best that I can, and if I give or I do the best that I can, then thatÕs fine with me. At times I donÕt like what I do.  But am I happy with myself? I have to be, what else am I going to do?

R:

 Has sex become more or less pleasurable now that you know your status?

A:

 ItÕs always been pleasurable, except for when I had to do it for money.

R: 

What was the most pleasurable sex you ever had?

A: 

The most pleasurable sex I had was a few months ago and it was absolutely the best time.  Somebody rich, somebody cute, and somebody who absolutely has a great personality, almost compatable and comparable to mine.  It was an affair.  I was going out with somebody, and I was having an affair.  And it was absolutely what an affair is definition wise. I was on Astor Place chillinÕ out with my skateboard and he walked by with this Rotweiler.  Looks turned to looks, and I was meeting the person I was going out with in five or ten minutes, so I quickly gave this guy my number and thought that he was gonna be all into me and want a relationship and this and that.  So I met up with him like a few days later and he asked during dinner, heÕs like "Do you do drugs?"  IÕm like, "Yeah."  And he was completely fine with that, he asked me if I was HIV, I told him I was, he was fine with that.  And completely told me, "I would love to fuck you."  And just completely everything an affair should be.  And when I see him, cause I still see him from time to time, and when I see him itÕs cool.  I can go have sex with this person who has no holdbacks about himself and has no holdbacks about what IÕm about.  ItÕs pure enjoyment.

R: 

How old is he?

A: 

IÕd say thirty-one, thirty-two.And heÕs rich but  it doesnÕt matter that heÕs rich.  ItÕs just nice to add.  He has a beautiful apartment? He has a whole building.  And an out of town residence.  I mean it doesnÕt matter though.  There are no strings attached.  There are no boyfriends to worry about, cause he has a boyfriend also.  IÕm not head-over-heels in love with him.  ItÕs just totally cool.

R: 

Is he positive?

A:

No.

R: 

Does he fuck you?

A: 

Yup.

R: 

Does he use a condom?

A: 

Yup.

R: 

Does he suck you without a condom?

A: 

He doesnÕt suck me.  HeÕs not into dick.  He likes to get his dick sucked and he likes to fuck.  ThatÕs fine.

R: 

So you sucked him without a condom?

A: 

Yeah.

R:

 And heÕs fine with that?

A: 

HeÕs fine with that.

R: 

Does he kiss you?

A: 

Yup.  I even swallow with him, heÕs the only one.

R: 

Why with him?

A: 

I donÕt know.  Because itÕs the best situation.  If he was HIV I wouldnÕt have to worry, IÕll just get like double dose of it, you know.

R: 

Do you want to be his boyfriend?

A: 

No.  IÕm perfectly happy being his friend.  I donÕt want to be his boyfriend.  If he was to say, "Be my boyfriend, IÕm ditching my boyfriend, weÕre going to move to a villa in Italy and, you wonÕt have to work because IÕve got all this money just come be my boyfriend."  I wouldnÕt do it. Because itÕs not a matter of doing it for the money or doing it for the extreme pleasure.  ItÕs a matter of understanding somebody under the circumstances.  I donÕt live with him.  I donÕt spend much time around him.  He hasnÕt met my friends, I havenÕt met his friends.  ItÕs not really like a relationship.  ItÕs like I donÕt want to hear about his problems and whatÕs going on in his life, just like he doesnÕt want to hear about whatÕs going on in mine.ItÕs a routine, I meet him, we go to dinner, I go back to his place and we have fabulous sex.But we always go to dinner first? HeÕs got a very European personality. There is a mystique thatÕs there.

R: 

Mystique.  ThereÕs that word again.

A:

 Yeah.  There was something appealing, I knew he had an intelligent mind and that drew me in.  But it scared me at the same time, because it was like I was looking at myself in another ten or twenty years.  So it was weird.

R: 

So you see yourself alive in 10 to 20 years?

A:

 I donÕt know.

R: 

You never think about that?

A: 

I never think about it.  I guess I should, but I donÕt.

SCENE: BRIAN-30 PAGES

Masculine-afraid of AIDS-HIV negative-butch family-always gay-convinced he will die of AIDS.

B:  When I was four.  I got caught having sex with the little boy across the street in the field behind the house.  And IÕve been gay ever since.  I didnÕt know what we were doing, but it felt good.

R:  How old was he?

B:  Same age, we were were both little kids and my father caught us.

R:  Did he know that you were having sex or was he just thinking you were misbehaving?

B:  No, you couldnÕt mistake it.  It was sex.  I had my dick in between his butt cheeks.  We were doing pee-pee to butt.  ThatÕs what we used to call it when we were little kids.  So we were doing pee-pee to butt in this field behind the house and then we were forbidden to play with each other.

R:  Did you ever see him again?

B:   He lived next door to us, but then he moved away.

R:  So you put your pee-pee in his butt?

B:  Not in, but kind of like in.

R:  So you were the top?

B:  I was the top.

R:  Are you a top now?

B:  IÕm very versatile.  To me it depends on the guy and the mood. IÕll throw my legs up in the air for anybody, but...I guess IÕd say IÕd rather be on bottom than on top, just because on top sometimes itÕs gross.  Sometimes it gets dirty.

R:  ThatÕs why we use condoms.

B:  Yes I know.  I was just discussing this with a friend of mine the other day.  We were talking about the whole AIDS things and how like our generation of gay men have never had sex without a condom. I mean, my whole life IÕve heard about AIDS.

R:  Do you ever desire to have sex without condoms?

B:   If I was in a monogamous relationship for no less than five years,  I would consider it.  But itÕs too scary.  Why would I want to die?  Whenever I have sex with anybody, whether it be anonymous, whether it be the first time, whether it be the fifteenth time, thereÕs a condom, period.

R:  Do you use condoms for oral sex?

B:  When IÕm blowing, yes.  If somebodyÕs blowing me and they donÕt wanna use a condom,then thatÕs their problem.

R:  Do you have less respect for a person, who doesnÕt want to use a condom?

B:  It depends on the situation, I mean if IÕm at the gym and somebody decides they wanna suck my dick, then who cares? YouÕre never going to see them again and probably donÕt even know their name.  But if IÕm gonna be dating somebody, then IÕll make them.

R:  Have you ever sucked a dick without a condom?

B:  Yeah.

R:  Did it freak you out?

B:   No, it didnÕt freak me out. When I have sex with somebody, I automatically assume that they have AIDS.  ThatÕs the first thing that goes through my mind.

R: What about kissing?

B:  I have no fear about kissing.

R:  Does rimming scare you?

B:  IÕve rimmed without using any type of protection.  I donÕt like to use a dental dam , it really takes away from it, so I kind of shy away from that activity. I protect myself as much as I possibly can.  I mean as much as I wouldnÕt walk in front of a taxicab, I wonÕt have sex without a condom.  But thereÕs always the chance the taxicabÕs gonna jump the curb and get you while youÕre on the sidewalk, you know?  You never know, do you? IÕve never had anybody say that they wouldnÕt have sex with me because I asked them to put a condom on. IÕve had my legs up the air and had him start to grab the tube of lube and I was like uh uh.

R:  Does it bother you that you have to be the grown-up?

B:  No, it doesnÕt bother me.  ItÕs my life, itÕs my body.

R:  Does it turn you off?

B:  IÕm twenty-five, you canÕt turn me off.  IÕm like a light switch.  But, to me itÕs sort of like putting on socks, itÕs just something you have to do. And whether he says it or I say it, itÕs something you have to do.

R:  So letÕs go back to when youÕre four years old and you get caught by your father, what does he say to you?

B:  I remember him coming at me with the belt, and I remember getting hit with the belt.  I remember not being able to play with the little boy and I remember not being able to play with the little girl across the street either because her parents found out.  So it was really, really bad.  But today sheÕs still one of my best friends.

R:  But what about heterosexual sex, did you get the message that that was bad also?

B:  I did.  I was thirteen when I had my first heterosexual contact.  I was sleeping with my girlfriend at the time.  I got caught having condoms.  I had come home from wrestling or baseball practice and my mother was taking the clothes out of my gym bag and found condoms in there.  I got chastised and grounded for having condoms in my bag.  Can you believe that?  It was horrible.

R:  Because that meant you were having sex!

B:  Right, I was fourteen when they found out.  And my mother said, "I donÕt ever want to see these again" and gave them back to me.  We had this big long fight about that.

R:  Do your parents know youÕre gay?

B:   I told them just before I moved out here.

R:  When did you find out?

B:  When I finally accepted, I was twenty-one.  I knew, I mean you know how it is, you always kind of know.  In my life, I was always, "No, no, no.  YouÕll find the right girl and then continue to have sex with girls."

R:   After you had sex with this four year old boy, did you ever have a time in your life where you were not having sex with men or have you always had male sexual encounters even though you were having heterosexual sex at the same time?

B:  IÕve always had male sexual encounters.  Whether it be playing spin the bottle in the tree-house and pointing it at a boy, so you could kiss him. The only time in my life when I didnÕt have sex with men was from like senior year in high school through like junior year in college.

R:  Do you know why?

B:  Yeah because I was scared to death.  I was playing football at school and I was afraid that if somebody found out, I would lose my scholarship and I wouldnÕt be able to continue going to school.  At that point it was more important. In the mid-west itÕs just not something that you do.

R:  So no one would have thought that youÕd be gay?

B:  Back then, I played football,  I was 6Õ1" and three hundred pounds.  Nobody thought I was gay.

R:  How much do you weigh now?

B:  One-eighty.

R:  It should be noted that youÕre a very attractive man.  You would have no problem finding sexual partners.

B:  Oh, come on.

R:  How was your sex life when you were three hundred pounds?

B:  That was the period that I was very focused on finishing school and football.

R:  Were you muscular when you were three hundred pounds or were you really fat?

B:  I was strong, I had a five hundred pound bench press then.  We were working out four days a week and running.  Obviously youÕre fat when youÕre three hundred pounds, 6Õ1",  big and bulky.

R:  But your weight did not make you an outcast because you were on the football team.

B:  YouÕre supposed to be big.  I would have sex.  I did have sex with girls during that period, just not often.

R:  Did you enjoy it?

B:  I think I talked myself into enjoying it.  I remember one time, I was having sex with this girl and I faked an orgasm with her because I just knew it wasnÕt gonna work.  I mean IÕve never had a problem having an erection, but to have an orgasm was different.

R:  Now when you were three hundred pounds did you ever have a problem finding women?

B:   No, there were a lot of women around that would do it just because.

R:  Did you sit around with your male heterosexual friends and talk about your sexual experiences all the time?

B:  Oh yeah, I was the epitome of butchness.  I grew up hunting and fishing and drove a big truck.  Actually, IÕm still very butch.  I still enjoy football games.  I still enjoy going home and hunting with my father.

R:  So when you do that, you donÕt feel like youÕre putting on a mask or youÕre putting on a front?

B:  IÕve really accepted that I can be gay and be that way as well.

R:  No, itÕs fascinating cause youÕre really sharp today.  Like youÕre in International Male.

Have clothes always been important to you?

B:  No, I donÕt think that clothes are really important to me, I just like to look nice.  IÕm not going to go buy something just because Armani has a new line.  But I like to go out and I like to dress nice and look nice.

R:  But now in college did you dress nice, because sometimes if someone is worried about clothes or if someone is too fashionable, that could be a sign of homosexuality.  Sometimes, not always, obviously.

B:  As much as possible I tried to look nice.  Again when youÕve got a size forty waist, and you wear a fifty-six jacket, itÕs more difficult to dress fashionably because fashionable clothes are designed for fitter people.  But, IÕm not obsessed with clothing, I just like to look nice.

R:  Are you obsessed with anything?

B:  The Dallas Cowboys.  Yeah, Troy Aikman, IÕm obsessed with Troy Aikman.

R:  Do football players turn you on?

B:  Yeah.

R:  So was it really hard being in college?

B:  It wasnÕt because I really suppressed it.  I really, really suppressed it.  Only until my senior year, did it really start to come out.

R:  Did you jack off a lot in college?

B:  Oh yeah.

R:  Would you think about men or would you think about women?

B:  Men.

R:  You were just saying you were trying to suppress it but you were jacking off about men every night?

B:  Yes, I know, itÕs weird.  ItÕs weird that I could stand in a shower that had sixteen shower heads, with a hundred and twenty guys, every day of my collegiate life, and...

R:  And not get a hard on?

B:  Now I canÕt walk through the shower heads at New York Sports without getting a hard on, and these are all old fat bald men.

R:  Do you see these guys from high school and college?

B:  Some of them and they all know that IÕm gay.

R:  Do they care?

B:  No.

R:  And how did they find out that you were gay?

B:  I told most of them.

R:  Was it hard for you?

B:  I guess the first one was hard.  I was living with my best friend, who I played football with also, and finally it just got to be too much for me.  We were out one night and when we came home it was like four oÕclock in the morning, and we sat down and I was like, "Hey, you know, we need to talk."  I told him I was gay and he was like, "I knew.  Why didnÕt you just tell me?"

R:  How did he know?

B:  HeÕs very intuitive.  HeÕs very into my life.  I had forged this relationship with this woman, but I was never able to consummate the relationship. So he knew.  He knew all of my habits.  And he was wonderful.  I mean he was the first one I told and it was a great experience.  I did lose one good friend, actually my very best friend from like the time I was eight, just by telling him that I was gay. I think that heÕs gay as well.  And he and I had a really unhealthy relationship through our whole life.  HeÕs absolutely beautiful.  And we had a very touchy feely, very I love you, very affectionate relationship through our whole lives.  We would sleep in the same bed.  We would lay in bed and hold each other. It was extremely homoerotic and it was ridiculous.And we would write letters.  He went to a different school than I did, but we were still in touch.

R:  Love letters?

B:  Not like, "I love you, I love you."  But, you know, "This is whatÕs going on in my life, this is what IÕm feeling."  He was as close to me as anybody ever has and probably ever will be.  And and we would kiss each other on the lips.  Like we would be talking about something very serious or lifeÕs most intimate things, and we would hug and kiss each other on the lips, no tongue or anything, but we would kiss each other on the lips which is very uncharacteristic for a heterosexual male.  When I finally told him that I was gay, he tried to deal with it but  it was just too much for him. HeÕs very religious, comes from a very religious uptight family.  I wish him the best.  I donÕt harbor any ill feelings toward him, though he did go back to our home town and start spouting off at the mouth about how one of his roommates was gay.  We were living together at the time, mind you. So everybody in my home town found out. It was very scandalous.  This was a town of like two hundred thousand people.  In our little community, everybody  knows everybody.  So it was very scandalous.

R:  But you think heÕs gay?

B:  I know heÕs gay. One time, IÕll never forget this, we were sitting watching a football game and he mentioned, "IÕd love to see that guy naked."  I was like "What?"  And this was before I had come out to him, so as far as he knew I was straight.  He was like "No, nothing, nevermind."  I mean, he is.  I feel bad for him, I really do.  Because I know what itÕs like to feel like that and to have those feelings and to want to come out and want to be active.  IÕm afraid heÕs never going to do that.  I feel bad for the people that are like that because they donÕt have the encouragement or they donÕt have the friends so they donÕt have the balls.

R:  Was it a struggle for you to come out or did you know that once you were out of college youÕd come out?

B:   I really felt just keep it in check while youÕre in school and then get out.  And when I got out it was another six months until I was able to start coming out.

R:  Who did you come out to?

B:  My best friend from college was the first one.  And then the second one was my longest best friend.

R:  Were you meeting gay people, I mean, how did you know that it was a life you wanted to even be a part of?

B:  There was one gay bar in Flint.  I was with my father, we were hunting for the day.  And when we go hunting, we get up at three oÕclock in the morning and start drinking beer at ten.  It was like eleven oÕclock at night and I had been drinking beer since like ten so I was really, really drunk.  All my inhibitions had gone away and I went to this gay bar in Flint and had sex with a guy in his car out in the parking lot.  Later I almost vomited because of this gut wrenching guilt for doing it.

R:  This was  the first time you picked up a man at a gay bar?

B:  Yes and he was really queeny.  Real Nellie Queen.  He was black, afro, he was totally not my type.  I just wanted to do it. It could have been anybody that night.

R:  Was he very aggressive?

B:  No, I was aggressive.

R:  Why did you come on to him?

B:  Cause he was there. I drove up and I was sitting in my car, and mind you, I was wasted!  Wasted!  And I was sitting there listening to the radio.  I looked over and there he was sitting in the car next to me, he had backed in, so we were like window to window. I looked over at him and he looked at me and I rolled my window down and he rolled his window down.  I donÕt really remember the exact dialogue that went on, but I ended up sitting in his car.  We started kissing, which was very erotic to me.  Then I started to touch him, and I went down on him and sucked his dick.  He got off and then he reciprocated.  But I couldnÕt cum.  I started to feel really dirty, right?  So, I was like, "no, no" and made him stop.  And then I left. You know how that night started?  I was with a friendÕs younger brother who claims to be bi-sexual.  A beautiful, beautiful man, body, everything, great, and we started talking about being gay and he was a stripper at gay clubs and we started talking about that.  And that got me, if I hadnÕt had that conversation with him, I probably wouldnÕt have gone to this bar.

R:  Did you have any idea what you were looking for.

B:  That was it.  People ask me, "WhatÕs your type?"  I really donÕt have a type.  I am very attracted to black men.  I am the biggest chocolate queen there is.  Without a doubt I love my men with some color.  My friend Tyrone always tells me, "They gotta be darker than a brown paper bag."  I like my men black, but thereÕs also a lot of white guys that are very attractive.  So I donÕt really have a type.

R:  When did this black man thing come up?

B:  I donÕt know when it really happened.  I guess I just always ended up having sex with black guys.  I never realized that it was something that was in me, like a fetish.  I never realized until I moved out here and started to become friends with my friend Tyrone.  He started to call me chocolate queen.  And I started to think about the fact that I am always having sex with black guys. The guy in the parking lot at the bar that night.  That was the first black guy I was ever with and it repulsed me.  The next day I went to see a preacher.  I didnÕt want to be gay,  I canÕt be gay.  So I went to see this preacher, the only one I knew  and he said, "Can we sit down and talk?"  So we sat down and talked.  He really talked down about homosexuality to me about how itÕs bad and I need to find Jesus.  He read me passages from the Bible.  We knelt at the pulpit and he started saying a bunch of things and calling on Jesus and I played along with him.  I really tried.  I started reading the Bible for like two weeks.  I was gonna be converted, and then finally I was just like, "You know, this ainÕt gonna happen."  And a couple of months later I came out to my friend from college.   At that point, I knew nothing about gay life, about gay people, nothing.  The only thing that I knew was that I liked to have sex with men, and thatÕs who I wanted to be with, and thatÕs who I was attracted to, and the only spiritual bond, real bond IÕve ever felt was with a man.

R:  What did you think it meant to be gay?

B:  That I was going to be an outcast.

R:  Meaning that you would have a big pink house that everyone would point at it and say, "HereÕs the gay guy of Flint, Michigan?"

B:  I really didnÕt know what to expect.

R:  Did you have any connection to gay culture?

B:   Just pornos. I didnÕt know any gay people.  I just knew thatÕs who I was, that I wanted to have sex with men.   Yet itÕs so much more than sex.  I think thatÕs a big problem with straight people and in particular, my parents, that they canÕt deal with homosexuality because they think of it as sex.  And itÕs so non-sex.

R:  Do you feel like you fit in the gay community?

B:  Certain segments.  I think the gay community is very hard to tap into.  If youÕre not a Chelsea muscle boy, if you donÕt  go to the clubs and hang out, if youÕre not a...

R:  I think we should say that you look like a Chelsea muscle boy.

B:  Stop!  Do you think?

R:  Yeah.  I mean youÕre what everyone describes in their ads that theyÕre looking for.

B:  I donÕt feel like I am.

R:  So how do you see yourself?

B:  As an outcast.  IÕd just as soon go stick my head under a pick-up truck and rebuild an engine as hang out at Sacks or Twilo.

R:  But do you listen to Judy Garland records, do you like Barbra Streisand?

B:  I listen to Hank Williams, Clint Black and Metallica.

R:  Did you think when you were coming out, "IÕm gonna be gay, that means IÕm gonna have to go to gay pride parades or buy Judy Garland albums?"

B:  I didnÕt even know who Judy Garland was.

R:  Did you think, "IÕll be gay and IÕll hang out with my straight friends and work on my car?"

B:  I didnÕt know.  I was surrounded by gay people in high school cause I would go to this bar on the weekends, so I kind of knew what it meant to be gay.  I read Torch Song Trilogy  as a kid, I knew about Harvey Fierstein.  I knew there was this man living in New York and he was proud to be gay.  I kind of had a sense of what it meant to be gay.

I started reading, I read and read, and I still read.  I want to learn as much about it as I can, because itÕs easier for me to explain it to people if IÕm more educated.

R:  Did you understand from TV or newspapers that there are a lot of healthy, happy, well adjusted, gay people in the world?

B:  IÕm still fascinated to learn about other people that are living this way and are in good relationships and are healthy and maybe even have children.  ThatÕs one thing that I really want, kids.

R: What would your parents say if you told them you were going to have a child by some way other than marrying a woman?

B:  TheyÕd have a shit fit.  They still canÕt deal with this.

R:  What was it like when you told them?

B:  I was twenty-three.  I was up at their house (typical suburbia, tri-level, dogs, three cars) we were having a going away dinner for me, cause I was leaving to come up here.  We were sitting out on the back deck, next to the pool, dad was cooking on the grill, mom was sitting there and we were drinking beer.  All day long, I had been walking around trying to muster up the guts to say this.  And I finally just said, "You guys I need to talk to you."  And my dad was like, "I could tell something was on your mind, whatÕs up?"  I was like "IÕm gay."  And he sat down.  IÕll never forget this as long as I live, he sat down, put his head in his hands and stared at the ground for fifteen minutes.  DidnÕt say a word.  And my mom, who is this ultra-aggressive woman and also ultra-ignorant about life, automatically told me and still believes that I need hormone shots, and itÕll fix it.  Last time we had this confrontation about it, she asked me, "Have you investigated what we talked about?"  I said "What?"  And she said "Have you been to see a doctor?"  I was like "A therapist."  She said "No, the doctor that we talked about you having hormone shots."  And I hung up on her.  IÕm just not dealing with that anymore.  IÕm past that, IÕm over it.  If she wants to live in my life, she can do it my way.

R:  She said right away, "WeÕll give you hormone shots and weÕll solve this?"

B:  "You need shots."

R:  And what did you say?

B:  I was like, "YouÕre crazy."  And I came armed, I know my mother and I came armed.  I had a stack of literature this high. She discredited everything that was written by anybody gay.  It didnÕt matter whether it was a senator or whether it was a doctor.

R:  Where did you get all this information?

B:  I was dating, and sort of still dating, a guy who was working at a gay and lesbian youth center in Detroit.  He helped prepare me to do this.

R:  Did your parents read any of it?

B:  The AmBrianan Psychiatric Association that said itÕs not a mental illness, they read that and believed that.  But anything that was written by anybody gay was propaganda, as if they had recruited me.

R:  They had no idea you were gay?

B:  No, I blew them away.

R:  Your dad just stared at his hands and your mom started talking?

B:  Yup.  And about two hours later, this was like a reprieve for me, two hours later the family started showing up, so we didnÕt really get a chance to talk about it very much.  Then I was leaving and I walked out to the front porch and my dad, who is like this big macho, works at General Motors and builds cars, came up to me and gives me this big hug and starts crying and says, "YouÕre my son, youÕre always my son and IÕll always love you."  Which ripped my heart out of my chest.  I bawled and bawled and bawled the whole way home.  I mean I was happy with him, I was upset with my mom.

R:  Did he give you anything in your life that would prepare you for his reaction?

B:   I saw my father emotional one time, and that was when his father died and I was twelve.  IÕve seen him angry, but IÕve never seen him emotional in a sad way.  I hadnÕt prepared for that at all.

R:  But your mother, did she hug and kiss you good-bye?

B:  No.  I mean she did physically, but she wasnÕt there.  SheÕs still not there.

R:  Is your father there for you now?

B:  HeÕs there, but heÕs not there.  I canÕt call him up and talk about my relationships.  I canÕt bring somebody home.  My mother called me two weeks ago on a Saturday night, "What are you doing?"  I said, "IÕm just getting ready to go to the movies."  She said "Oh really?  What are you going to see?"  And I told her.  She was like, "Who are you going with?"  I said I have a date.  She was like, "Really?"  I was like, "Yeah.  HeÕs a vice president of CitiBank and heÕs gorgeous and heÕs black."  And she was like, "ThatÕs enough."  The fact that heÕs a he and that heÕs black! They donÕt know anything about me personally.  My parents and I have a very surface relationship.  They donÕt know anything about my real life.  What I do socially, who I sleep with, when I sleep with, how frequently I sleep with.  My father told me that he is still gonna always in the back of his mind hope that I walk up to him with a five foot two blond and say, "SheÕs pregnant and sheÕs my wife".  So thatÕs real supportive.

R:  So you got you out of Flint?

B:  I was working for a company  doing national recruiting and  I started to travel a lot.  I did a good job and my boss was here in New York, and the national job had gone away due to some down-sizing.  He was like, "Why donÕt you come work for me in New York?"  So I came to New York.

R:  Were you in heaven?

B:  No, at first it was awful.  It was so big and so scary.  I was so afraid.  I lived in Hoboken.  I was afraid to get on the PATH train.  I didnÕt know how to put the money in, I didnÕt know how to buy tokens, I was just afraid.  But you get over that.  The first day I got out of Hoboken, there was a fire at the Christopher Street PATH train station.  It traumatized me to no end. I found a guy, funny as it is, I was traveling three times a week and I was dealing with the same travel agency.  And the guy at the travel agency was gay.  And he and I came out to each other one day just over the phone.  We started talking I was like, "So where should I go when I come to New York?"  And he was living in the Bronx, and he was like, "I donÕt know, what do you want to do?"  And we kind of played this little game back and forth.  And I was like, "Listen, IÕm gay.  Where should I go?"  HeÕs like, "IÕll take you out."  He showed me around Christopher Street and he showed me around Chelsea.  ItÕs really hard to negotiate the Village when you have no idea where you are.  But he showed me around.

R: When you came out in Flint did you do the anonymous sex thing all the time?

B:  No, I called a gay hot line in Detroit and was like, "Where should I go, what kind of things are out there, can you help me?"  And the guy, I guess I have a good phone voice, because I am forever getting dates over the phone, anyway, this guy was like, "IÕll show you around."  I met up with him, but he was not my thing.  I mean he was very, very nice and very polite and he showed me three or four different bars.  So then I kind of knew where some bars were.  I did go do the anonymous sex thing at the bars, I would pick somebody up and take them home.  At this time, I was living in a house with my friend from college.

R:  He didnÕt care if you brought guys home even though he was straight?

B:  His bedroom was upstairs, mine was downstairs.

R:  Did he hear you having sex?

B:  Uh huh.

R:  Would he comment on it?

B:  In the morning.

R:  Was he fascinated, did he ask you questions about it?

B:  HeÕs still fascinated by it.

R:  So do you think heÕs gay too?

B:  No, not at all.  Straight as the day is long.

R:  You never fooled around with him?

B:  No.  You know why I know heÕs straight?  Because he doesnÕt have a problem with it. HeÕs so comfortable in his sexuality, that heÕs just like, whatever.  He comes to visit me here, and I was living with my boyfriend, and heÕs fine with it.

R:  So you had a boyfriend for a while?

B:  For two years.

R:  Were you monogamous?

B:  I wasnÕt.

R:  Were you supposed to be?

B:  Yeah, but I was not able to do it.  I cheated on him in  and we broke up.  Then we got back together and I was monogamous with him until I moved here.  I declined everything because I was in this monogamous relationship.  I was going to be this perfect spouse.  Then I moved out here, and IÕll never forget the first time I found out about KingÕs Upstairs.  IŌd never been to  any place like that before and it was really intriguing. I met this gorgeous black man up there and had all kinds of sex with him.  And then my boyfriend moved out here.

R:  And you said youÕd be monogamous while you were living by yourself until he got here.

B:  That was the agreement.

R:  Did you tell him you were not monogamous?

B:  No.  I never have.

R:  He has no idea?

B:  He caught me one time. I cheated on him was when my friend from college came out here with his friend Dave.  And Dave is really attractive, 6Õ3", big, beefy, blond, blue eyes, lots of money.  And IÕve always been attracted to him, but heÕs straight.  So we think.  There had been a lot of sexual tension between us through the whole week, like a lot of real close contact.  Anyway, we were at my apartment in Hoboken.  Matt and my boyfriend wanted to stay in because they were tired, so Dave and I decided to go out.  So we just went to this little bar up the street and got tanked!  We sat there and we played pinball and just got rip-roaring...

R:  Straight bar or gay bar?

B:  Straight bar.  And he confided in me his curiousness about homosexuality.  And I was like, "Well how are you curious?  What do you want to do?  Do you just want to go have blind sex with somebody?"  HeÕs like, "No, I really want to hug and kiss."  And I was like, "YouÕve done this before."  And he was like, "I really just want to do that with somebody.  I knew that I could talk to you about it."  I was like, "Yeah, you can talk to me."  And by this point all my inhibitions are gone, because IÕm just wasted.  And IÕve always wanted to sleep with this guy.  And um, I was like, "You want to go sleep with me right now?  IÕll let you hug and kiss me."  He was like, "Yeah."  So we walked out of the bar and stood on the street corner in Hoboken, New Jersey, and made out like mad dogs.  All these cars driving by yelling "Fags!"  It was great!

R:  YouÕve always stirred it up, everywhere you go.

B:  It was great!

R:  Where did you guys do the deed?

B:  We never did.  Here I am with a straight boy standing on the street corner in Hoboken, and I was like, "LetÕs go to a hotel."  But at this point it was like four oÕclock in the morning and we decided that we really shouldnÕt go to a hotel. Because it was four oÕclock in the morning and my boyfriend was sleeping in bed waiting for me to come home.  He knew that we were just down the street, so there was no reason that we should be out that late.  So we like kissed and hugged and groped and touched and felt and OH!

R:  And nothing came of it?

B:  No, the story gets much better.  We get back to my apartment and I was living in this single unit ground floor thing, so the door to the street was the door to my house.  So we went up there and we were standing on the porch saying weÕre not going to talk about this in front of anybody, weÕll talk about it between ourselves, and I hugged him and kissed him on the cheek as the door swung open behind me.  The boyfriend.

R: Your boyfriend?

B:  And he automatically saw this and knew that there had been sexual tension and could feel it as well.  And we went back into the house and right away he started packing. At four in the morning, heÕs packing his bags and heÕs leaving.  HeÕs got the phone, heÕs calling his mother and all this shitÕs going on  And IÕm trying to calm him down.  I was like, "LetÕs talk, letÕs talk, letÕs talk."  And, IÕm stumbling down drunk.

R:  But it was not the first time that you had been unfaithful.

B:  No, no, no, no.  It was the first time he ever found out.  And I grabbed a hold of him to try and calm him down and he reared back with the phone and cracked me right in the forehead.  Fifteen stitches! So my college friend, who had been watching the whole event in shock, took me to the hospital.

R:  Were you punching him?

B:  No, IÕve never punched him.  IÕve never ever punched him.  IÕve got all this violence and rage inside of me, but IÕve always been able to not punch him.

R:  But he punched you?

B:  He didnÕt punch me, he whacked me in the head with a cordless phone.

R:  So what was he like?  Was he a really big masculine guy or was he queeny?

B:  No, heÕs not masculine.  HeÕs black.  Kind of queeny, kind of butch.  I mean heÕs got his moments, I guess.

R:  Is he really emotional?

B:  HeÕs very emotionally unstable.

R:  Are you drawn to men like that?

B:  Yeah.  IÕm the caretaker.  IÕm the father, IÕm the big brother.  I take care of people.

R:  Do you get comfortable when people take care of you, or does it make you uncomfortable?

B:  For the first time in my life, IÕm with somebody right now whoÕs trying to take care of me.  And itÕs hard.  ItÕs difficult for me.  HeÕs considerably older than me, thirty-six and well established in his career.

R:  Is he black?

B:  Yeah.  And heÕs very attractive, very well to do.  IÕm kind of having a hard time with him buying me things and I guess thereÕs a whole stigma in the gay community of guys looking for DaddyÕs.  And that bothers me.

R:  Did you feel like a Daddy when you took care of your other boyfriend?

B:  I did to a point.  I think that was part of the attraction with him.  He had a lot of issues.  Issues beyond issues.  A brother convicted of murder, a father who was abusive, a mother whoÕs codependent and disabled, lived in inner-city Detroit, was raised to fear white people, poverty. He really wanted to be monogamous.  This was it, this was the relationship.  Up until about a month and a half ago when I broke up with him, we still live together..

R:  So you go to the hospital, you get fifteen stitches, he leaves...?

B:  And comes back two days later.  And we talk. We decide that weÕre going to try to make a go of it.  Meanwhile, Dave and Matt are still staying at my house cause they didnÕt fly out for two days.

R:  So did you fool around again?

B:  No, no, no.  God, I didnÕt even talk to him for fear I was going to get beat again.  I spoke to him one time on the telephone after they had left.  He called me and we talked about it, and he wrote me a letter.  And I saw him one time.

R:  So how did you meet this other man youÕre seeing now?

B:  The Tout House.  A friend of mine enjoys going there, so we went up there one day, actually on my birthday.  We had a couple of drinks and this really attractive black man walked in.  He eyed me up as he walked by.  So I went over and started talking to him.   He is very intelligent, heÕs very sweet, heÕs very nice, and heÕs very married for eighteen years.To a man.  HeÕs been in this relationship for about eighteen years.  And now heÕs divulging his love to me.  Buying me plane tickets, putting me up in hotels and buying me clothes.

R:  Are you attracted to his money?

B:  Not at all.  I told him that right up front.  I was like, "Look I donÕt want anything from you, IÕm not after you  because you drive a Mercedes, IÕm not after you because of your business card, IÕm truly attracted to you."  But I think that IÕve talked myself into so much of that, that IÕve sort of like let the relationship go.  IÕve like convinced myself to the point where itÕs not intimate.

R:  What do you mean?

B:  IÕve thought so much about it.  With everything thatÕs going on my life, I switched jobs ten days ago, my boyfriend and this other guy, itÕs too much.  I canÕt be intimate with him.

R:  Do you tend to be in relationships?

B:  Yeah I do.

R:  But, monogamy seems very difficult for you.

B:   I think itÕs difficult for me because IÕm twenty-five and because when all my peers were sowing their oats I was hiding my oats.

R:  But yet you canÕt decide which one you want?

B:  I donÕt want a relationship right now.  ThatÕs why I ended the relationship that IÕm in.

R:  The man with the Mercedes, you ended that relationship?

B:  No, no, heÕs not going to be a relationship.  He canÕt be a relationship.  HeÕs married.

R:  He didnÕt tell you he would leave the man heÕs with to be with you?

B:  I would never do that.  I wouldnÕt allow that to happen.

R:  But youÕre really into this guy?

B:  IÕm into him because heÕs very interesting.  I like people for a lot more than just their dicks.  ThatÕs one good thing about me.  Like this one man from San Francisco I met, heÕs a doctorate level law student, heÕs a registered socialist, and heÕs got these political views that are just completely out of control, and I love that about him.  And I get so much from him emotionally, mentally, intellectually.  Not to mention the sex that we have.

R:  And how did you meet this guy?

B:   I was in San Francisco on business.  It was Friday night, I said well hell IÕve never done this before, letÕs go do it.  So I take this cab down to the Castro and I go up to the Eros and there was like nobody up there but a bunch of gross old men that were like eyeing me up, and I was like IÕm either sleeping with nobody or IÕm going to wait till some cute guy comes up here.  And then in comes this guy, and he is just so cute.  He comes up and he sits next to me and puts his hand on my leg, and he looks up at me and smiles.  ThereÕs this wicked little smile that he has.

R:  HeÕs a very attractive man?

B:  HeÕs very, very attractive.  Anyway, he nodded at me and we went off to one of these more private type rooms and had like intense sex for like two hours.  I mean blow jobs, rimming, sixty-nine, but no anal intercourse because I never do that on the first date.

R:  Were you the top or the bottom or was it totally versatile sex?

B:  It was totally versatile sex.  We were there for like two hours and then we were like "Whew.  IÕm Brian.  IÕm Mark."  It was really wonderful, I mean it was really, really wonderful. We went and took a shower and kind of hung out in the steam room and then we just kind of like played around.  They have like slings and stuff, and we like played in the slings.  He climbed up in this sling and I climbed up on top of him and we were just like making out.  We werenÕt having sex, but we were both naked laying in the sling.  We drew the biggest crowd. Cause heÕs fierce, heÕs got a fierce body. He wears like size thirty pants and heÕs just, I mean heÕs gorgeous.HeÕs very masculine.  HeÕs wonderful.

R:  So you guys put on a little show for the people at Eros?

B:  It was fun.

R:  Are you an exhibitionist?

B:   I enjoy shock value.  I enjoy holding somebodyÕs hand on the street.  I enjoy a kiss on the street corner in Detroit.  I love that.

R:  So now whatÕs happening with the ex who still lives with you?

B:  HeÕs just about to get an apartment and be on his own.

R:  Do you think that will be it for you guys?

B:  ItÕs really over.  ThereÕs too much history, thereÕs too much violence. IÕve never hit him, but thereÕs a lot of pushing, a lot of shoving, and a lot of screaming.  IÕve broken walls, IÕve broken plates, IÕve broken chairs, IÕve broken windows, and itÕs very unhealthy.

R:  Why havenÕt you hit him?

B:  Because I would kill him.

R:  Do you want to kill him sometimes?

B:  Uh huh.  He makes me very, very angry.  HeÕs extremely stubborn, ridiculously stubborn.  We fought for the longest time because he wanted to have joint bank accounts.  Well, I make three times as much as he does, and I wasnÕt comfortable doing that.  Not because I think that he would steal from me, but because I have control issues and I know I have control issues, and that makes it very difficult to live with me, let alone share a savings account with me.  And I wouldnÕt do that and we fought over it.

R:  Why was it so important to him?

B:  It was important to him because he wanted the permanency of the relationship.

R:  So heÕs fighting and you guys are throwing around chairs and everything because he wants to believe that itÕs never going to end?

B:  Yeah, well he knows now.

R:  Do you still have sex?

B:  We had sex last weekend.  WeÕve always had good sex together.

R:  When you have sex with him do you think maybe youÕll stay in the relationship with him?

B:   I know I wonÕt be in a relationship with him.  IÕll always love him, and IÕll always have respect for him for as far as heÕs come emotionally, physically, spiritually, heÕs come a very, very long ways from the time that I met him.  I will always hold a special place in my heart for him but I look forward to not living with him.  I look forward to when I clean the house and I come home itÕs still clean.  IÕm afraid IÕm not going to have constant companionship.  IÕll miss that.  IÕll miss Saturday afternoons in the park.  IÕll miss staying home on Saturday night and watching movies.  But IÕm not going to miss fighting, IÕm not going to miss the irritation.  IÕm not going to miss his little club friends calling up my house at three oÕclock in the morning. HeÕs made me an angry person towards a lot of things.  HeÕs made me bitter.  IÕm very fun loving, IÕm very laid back.  I just like things my way.

R:  Does that scare you?  Do you wonder how youÕll ever be in a relationship?

B:   I donÕt know whether IÕll be able to.  I like things my way.

R:  Do you think youÕll ever be able to give up anonymous sex?

B:  Yeah.

R:  How does that make you feel when you have anonymous sex?  Do you feel empty or do you feel fulfilled?

B:  I enjoy it.  I love touching somebody for the first time.  I think thatÕs the most intriguing thing there is.  Sometimes thatÕs all IÕm looking for, sometimes looking for more, but it depends. I like sex. IÕve had sex twice today. At the gym during lunch. I had oral sex both times.

R:  You blew someone, or they blew you?

B:  Both.  Both times.

R:  Where did you do it?

B:  In the steam room.

R:  Was anybody watching?

B:  Not the first time, but the second time there were other people in there.

R:  While you were getting blown or while you were blowing?

B:  While I was blowing.

R:  And they didnÕt say anything about it?

B:  Nope.

R:  And you were in a towel in the steam room, so you were not using condoms for that, correct?

B:  I did use a condom.

R:  How did you use a condom in a steam room?

B:  Because I carry them with me at all times.

R:  Even in your towel?

B:  I carry them with me at all times.

R:  So wait, are you telling me that you went into the steam room holding a condom in your hand?

B:  No, we were in the shower, and glances across the shower was about all it took.  And then I went to the locker, grabbed a condom, grabbed two condoms actually, and then went into the steam room.

R:  And you sucked him with a condom?

B:  Yeah.

R:  You must know that condoms for blow jobs are very uncommon.

B:  I do know that.  IÕve had countless people say, "What are you doing?"

R:  Do they ever say no I canÕt do that and rip the condom off and they walk away?

B:  IÕve never had that happen.

R:  Do you find it difficult, as a gay man, to be so staunch in your safe sex practices or do you feel like youÕre fighting this battle with people?

B:  I donÕt really care about other people. We use condoms.  ItÕs not up for negotiation, itÕs not up for discussion, I just do it.

R:  Have you ever let a guy cum in your mouth?

B:  With a condom on.

R:  No, without a condom.

B:  No.

R:  YouÕve never let a guy cum in your mouth?

B:  No.  Well thatÕs a lie.  I was sixteen or seventeen, and there was this boy that I was fooling around with on my wrestling team.  The first time we did it we were in the wrestling room in the middle of the day.  Then one other time we were at his house and he walked out of the shower with a towel on and took his towel off.  His dick was like half hard, I just happened to be sitting right there, so I reached up and touched it.  And he was like, "Do you want to blow me?"  I was like, "Sure."  So we went and I was blowing without a condom and he asked if he could, he said uh, now IÕm trying to remember exactly how he phrased it, "Can I just nut in your mouth?"  Something like that, something really vile.  And I was like, "Yeah, go ahead."  So I have tasted cum.

R:  Did you know at that time that it was wrong to do that?

B:  I did know.  But itÕs much more of a priority now than it was to me then.

R:  How did you learn about safe sex?

B:  When we were in school they would have different people come and talk to us.  They talked to us about rape, safe sex, drugs, and I guess I learned about it from that, but by that point it was so prevalent in the papers and in the news media.

R:  Do you feel well informed about the disease?

B:  Very much.

R:  Do you ever worry that youÕre going to get it even though youÕre having such safe sex?

B:   I had a dream the other night that I had it.  And it was a really weird dream and very scary.  ItÕs on my list for therapy this week.

R:  Do you get tested a lot?

B:  I get tested every six months.

R:  Even though youÕre using condoms galore?

B:  You know how IÕm gonna get it?  IÕm gonna be on a subway and thereÕs gonna be a bum there with a knife and heÕs gonna freak out and cut me with a knife or stab me with a needle.  All these precautions that I take, IÕm gonna get it some fucked up way.

R:  Why do you believe that?

B:  I just do.  And everybody will say, "Oh, thereÕs another gay man that died of AIDS."  And all my fighting will be for naught.  But I will know, deep in my heart, that I did everything I could do to prevent it.

R:  What is it about us as gay men, that we believe, some of us, not everybody, but some of us lead such fatalistic lives?

B:  I donÕt know about others.  I just know that I will die of AIDS.

R:  But it never lets you relax, it never allows you to relax your sexual standards?

B:  No, itÕs not worth it.  I wanna live as long as I can.  I really try to live each day, like the old oxymoron, live each day like itÕs your last.  You never know.  Have as much sex as you can before you die, he who has the most sex wins. I just try do it as safe as possible. Every book that I pick up and read talks about hundreds of their friends, tens, twenties, hundreds of their friends dying of AIDS.  And itÕs so part of our, IÕll say heritage, for lack of a better word, as gay men, that thatÕs a big chunk of what itÕs about is guys dying of AIDS.  Everything you pick up and read, this book included, talks about guys dying of AIDS.  ThatÕs scary, itÕs very scary.

R:  Do you think psychologically youÕll ever be able to have unsafe sex again?

B:  I donÕt know if IÕll ever be able to.

R:  Do you think about AIDS while youÕre having sex?

B:  Not all the time.  Once you get totally into it, you know, once youÕre protected, then you can go ahead and be safe, thatÕs the way I feel.

R:  YouÕre twenty-five, youÕre still young, where do you think youÕre headed?

B:  I donÕt know.  Top of the world.  IÕm excited by my life.  IÕm excited by every day.  I get out of bed at six oÕclock in the morning and IÕm excited.  I had a conversation when I resigned from my old job, IÕd been there for three and a half years, and I worked for this really wonderful Scottish man.  I was making decent money and he gave me a forty-five percent raise, right there on the spot when I quit.  A huge salary, a huge bonus, a huge resign-on bonus.  This is when I was going to work at Oracle.  And one of the big reasons I went to Oracle was because itÕs very gay friendly, itÕs very driven. And I was feeling squashed by this white European owned firm.  Anyway he offered me all this money, and I said, "You know what?  This is proof that there is such a difference between your generation and mine.  Your generation could be bought.  My generation, you could pay me fifty thousand dollars a year, and if I ran the world and if I knew everything, I would be happy.  This is so not about money."  And itÕs not about money, itÕs about ideals, itÕs about principles, and itÕs about learning, growth.  I wanna learn everything there is out there, and I wanna speak French, and I wanna learn Latin and...

R:  YouÕre very much the individual, but yet you feel very alone and an outcast?

B:  A lot of times in my personal life I do.  IÕm not so longing for acceptance, and IÕm not so longing to have fifty of my best friends over for Thanksgiving dinner.  I guess what I look for are people who have the same zest for life, the same interests, the same excitement levels that I do.  I know theyÕre there, itÕs just hard to find them sometimes.

R:  What scares you?

B:  It scares me that IÕll be sixty years old and alone.  That scares me.

R:  What about thirty years old and alone?

B:  No, cause IÕll still look good.  It scares me to be my grandmotherÕs age.  To be alone and not have anything to leave behind, to have learned everything that IÕm going to learn between now and then and have nobody to pass it on to.

R:  You mean like kids?

B:  Yeah, to have no legacy.

R:  Are you disappointed that youÕre not able to sustain monogamy?

B:  IÕm disappointed that I committed to something that I was not able to do.  I believed I was going to be able to do it.  I donÕt fail at things, IÕve never been one to fail things.  I failed at not being able to be monogamous, and I failed at what we had both hoped would be a full time, long term relationship.  So thatÕs very, very hard for me.  But I think to set the expectation that IÕll never be able to be monogamous is difficult to say, because you can never  say never.

R:  Would you jump into it again?

B:  Not right away, no.  ItÕs been very hard.  I mean the break-upÕs been hard, the living together was hard, itÕs just a difficult situation all the way around.

R:  So monogamy is not important to you right now?

B:  Right now, no.

R:  How important is anonymous sex to you now?

B:  Anonymous sex?  I guess I wouldnÕt classify anonymous or otherwise.  Sex is important right now.

R:  How much sex are you having?

B:  Four or five times a week.

R:  Where do you find it?

B:  Yesterday I went to the Booth across from forty-third, I had to go over there to run an errand and while I was in the neighborhood I just stopped by.  The gym, the Booths, um...Prospect Park, I live two blocks from Prospect Park.

R:  Are you looking for sex or are you looking for the right sex partner?

B:  I wonÕt have just have sex with somebody gross.  Like if a gross old queen came up to me and tried to suck my dick, I would not, I would just not.

R:  Age is a big thing for you, you mention old queens a lot.  Do you not like being around older people?

B:  No, I like being around older people, I enjoy it, because theyÕve lived more and they have more to give and more experiences to share.

R:  But you donÕt wanna have sex with them?

B:  Right.

R:  Are most of you sexual experiences  good?

B:   I had a bad experience in New Orleans.  It was in one of those places with booths.  This guy lit up a crack pipe in this booth.  It was just like really disturbing to me.  He had a condom on him and I was sucking his dick and he lit up and I heard it and I smelled it.  And I got up and I was just like, instant fear, drugs, AIDS.

R:  But he had a condom on?

B:  I know, but it just smacked me in the face.  The crack pipe just smacked me in the face.  It just scared the living shit out of me, and I just left.  He was like "Hey, hey come back, IÕll put it away."  I go, "You better put it away, youÕll get arrested walking around with that thing out on the street."  So, that was my bad experience.

R:  But you assume that everyoneÕs positive?

B:  You have to assume that.  In this day and age you have to assume that.

R:  But you donÕt really want to believe it?

B:  ItÕs a hard thing, I donÕt wanna believe it, but you have to, otherwise youÕre gonna get it.

R:  What if you fell in love with somebody who told you they were negative and youÕre in this relationship and then six months later they convert, because they just had unsafe sex or whatever, and they become positive.  You had fallen in love with this person, would you stay in love with them?

B:  I would stay in love with them and I would stay in the relationship with them but I wouldnÕt have sex with them.

R:  Even with condoms?

B:  I couldnÕt get past it.

R:  So you would not have sex with somebody whoÕs HIV positive if they told you?

B:  No.

R:  If you were in a club or in a sauna and youÕre about to have sex and somebody goes, "By the way, IÕm positive."  You would stop having sex with them?

B:  Right.  If somebody took a gun with six bullets in the chamber, and five of them were blanks and one of them is real, let me pull it in your mouth.

R:  But why are you using condoms then?  Why donÕt you just ask people if theyÕre positive or negative?  I mean why do you use condoms?

B:  Well I do ask them.

R:  Oh you ask them if theyÕre negative before you have sex with them?

B:  Well not everybody, if I get them in my bed, then IÕm asking them.  If IÕm having anonymous sex with somebody in a booth, I donÕt say "pssst" you know.

R:  Some people do.

B:  Do they?

R:  Do people ask you?

B:  IÕve never been asked.

R:  YouÕre always the asker?

B:  IÕve never been asked.

R:  So youÕre always the one to bring it up, donÕt you find that fascinating?

B:  IÕve never really thought about it before.

R:  YouÕve never thought about the fact that no oneÕs ever brought it up to you?  That you sleep with all these gay men, and we all deal with AIDS, but youÕre the only person in like all these tons of men that you sleep with that ever feels the need to bring it up?

B:  ThatÕs very interesting, but IÕve never thought about it.

R:  Have you ever had anybody tell you that they were positive and then you got out of bed?

B:  IÕve never had anybody tell me that they were.

R:  They say the rate is like fifty percent, so donÕt you think that these people have lied to you?

B:  Uh huh.

R:  Have you ever found out anyoneÕs lied to you?

B:  No.  I try not to think about it.

R:  But you do think about it, Brian, because you use condoms all the time.

B:  I know, but you canÕt think about it all the time.  You canÕt.  ItÕs a fact.  You deal with it.

R:  What about drugs and alcohol?

B:  When youÕre from Michigan, you drink beer, thatÕs what you do.

R:  Do you miss having sex with women?

B:   I donÕt like women.  I inherently donÕt like females.

R:  At all?

B:  I donÕt like females.  Until they prove themselves to me, theyÕre bad.

R:  How would they prove themselves to you?

B:  They canÕt be typical women.  Like I hate like the whole prissiness of girls.

R:  Do you like lesbians?

B:  TheyÕre women.  I donÕt like or dislike them because theyÕre lesbians or because theyÕre straight.  I just donÕt like girls.

R:  Not at all?

B:  No.  Not even to be in the same room with.  Not even to listen to them talk down the hallway.  I donÕt like them.  TheyÕre just stupid.  ItÕs like, "Why are there  fish", we always call them fish, "Why are there a fish around?"

R:  You donÕt like women.  IÕve never heard anyone say that before.

B:  IÕve got like a couple of female friends, but theyÕre ultra cool.

R:  Are you really close to them?

B:  IÕm very close to them.  They know how much I hate women.

R:  What do you hate about women especially since women are all so different?

B:  No theyÕre not.  TheyÕre petty, catty, stupid bitches.  And I just donÕt like them.  And I have no use for them.

R:  This is really odd?  Have you always hated women?

B:   Yeah. I donÕt talk to them.  I wonÕt speak to them.  I hired forty-seven people last year and only two were women.

R:   I find this disturbing because you date black men and you say your whole life is about learning and opening up and yet thereÕs fifty percent of the population you have no use for?

B:  I donÕt think all women should be killed.

R:  How generous of you.

B:  I donÕt think that.  ThereÕs just no place in my life for ninety percent of the women that exist in this world.

R:  Except that you got here via a uterus?

B:  Right, well.

R:  YouÕre whole life is owed to the fact that a woman carried you around for nine months.

B:  Yeah, I know and she likes to throw that in my face, too.

R:  Do you think youÕll come to peace with this?

B:  I hope so.

R:  So you do want to get along with women?

B:  No, I donÕt want to get along with women, I really donÕt care.  IÕd like to get along with my mother.

R:  What else would you like Brian?

B:  Learning is important to me.  To never be stale.  To always have something going on.  To always be busy.  To never be complacent.  ThatÕs a word that my football coach used to use a lot with us.  Complacency.  And IÕve taken it to heart and itÕs like driven me through my life.To never be complacent.  Once you get complacent with something, then you start to go stale and you lose some of the sharpness that youÕve built.  You can never be complacent with your life because thereÕs so much to learn.  And thereÕs so much to do.  And thereÕs so many places to go, and see, and people.  ThatÕs what drives me is that thereÕs so much out there that I havenÕt experienced, that I havenÕt seen, that I havenÕt learned.  I want it all.  I want to learn it all.

R:  I hope you learn about women.

B:  WeÕll see.

R:  What do you hate about yourself?

B:   I hate my anger and my violence.  ThatÕs a part of me that I want to go away, that IÕm working on.  And the relationships with my folks is tough.  I grew up very, very, very close to my father, IÕve been hunting with him since I was eight and fishing since I can remember.  And going to baseball games and football games and drinking beer together.  My father and I were very, very close friends.  And thatÕs very hard for me, that the relationship has altered because of my sexuality.

R:  Have you been hunting with your dad since you told him you were gay?

B:  One time.

R:  And how was it?

B:  Horrible.  It was my father, his friend and I.  And we were sitting in this duck blind  all dressed in camouflage waiting for ducks with our guns.  And his friend was there and he said, "So have you been down to that place in the Village where they got all them there queers?"  And my dad just turned his back on me, and I said, "Yeah IÕve been there."  And that was all I said, cause he like turned his back on me because he was afraid of what I was gonna say.  He was so afraid of how that will impact him and his life.  And itÕs all because of ignorance.  HeÕs afraid how other ignorant people are gonna feel and think.

R:  But he hugged you the day you told him?

B:  He did.

R:  Does he still hug you?

B:  No.

R:  He stopped hugging you?

B:  HeÕs not that way.

R:  When you guys were hunting would you pee in front of each other, were you very open about your bodies in front of each other?

B:  Yeah.

R:  Do you think heÕd be uncomfortable having you see his body now?

B:  I donÕt know, I think probably.  They see us as these sex mongers.

R:  But everybodyÕs a sex monger areÕnt they?

B:  ThatÕs the funniest thing, I was in Washington DC last Wednesday, and I ordered pizza to my hotel room because I was exhausted.  And I was gonna go out to this bar but I didnÕt want to, and I ended up having sex with the delivery boy when he delivered the pizza to my hotel room and it was so cute, because he worked for the hotel, and he brought me my food and set it down.  And he was strikingly attractive.  And I like signed the thing and gave him his tip.  He went to walk out the door and I was working and I sat back down at my table to work, and I looked over my shoulder at him, and he was standing in the doorway looking at me and he smiled.  You know this big mouthful of white teeth.  And he walked away.  And the phone rang, like five minutes later.  "Mr. Bennett, how was your pizza?  This is room service."  I was like, "You know, itÕs kind of cold.  Could you come and warm it up?"  And he said, "IÕll be right there."  And he came into my room and bam!  He warmed it up all right.  But itÕs funny to my roommate from home who I always tell my little exploits to, like going to the gym and having sex, and the pizza boy, he was just fascinated by the pizza boy.  And heÕs like, "You fucking fags.  You can have sex absolutely everywhere.ItÕs not fair."

SCENE: FRANK-30 PAGES

Lonely-wants to be a musician-lives at home-needs sex but canÕt find it-feels like an outcast

F:  IÕm a Jersey boy, born and bred, actually sometimes thatÕs a stigma. IÕm also a musician, and IÕve been trying to break into the music business for too long.

R:  How long?

F:  At least ten years.  I was in two different bands, local legends, but we could never get signed.  I remember when I was a little tiny kid and saw the Beatles on Ed Sullivan.  I walked up to the television and pointed to Paul McCartney on the TV screen and said, "ThatÕs what I want to be when I grow up."

R:  You wanted to be Paul McCartney?

F:  I wanted to be Paul McCartney up until I got out of high school when I decided to study acting.  See, I never knew much about the business end of music, and that was my big downfall.  So naively, I decided to study acting thinking that maybe IÕll just get a job on All My Children and thatÕll finance my band.  I was so naive.  I was in a band at the time.  I had short hair but wore a wig because at that time it was the hair bands that were really popular, you know Poison, Motley Crue, all those heavy metal bands.  But I was working an office job during the day, so I had to have short hair.

R:  So a lot of your influences into the music that you wanted to be involved in tended to be heterosexual, like Paul McCartney and different metal bands?

F:  ThereÕs nothing gay connected to my music at all.

R:  What about when you were a kid, did you play with Barbie dolls or did you dress up in womenÕs clothing?

F:  I was always a loner, a non-conformist.  And when youÕre a kid, and you know kids are so cruel,  other kids will ostracize you just for that.  But kids are savvy.   Of course, when youÕre seven nobody thinks in terms of sex, I mean the actual act of sex, but words like "sissy" always tend to come out and people know youÕre different, even sometimes before you do.  And I think that was the case with me, I think everybody knew something was different about me before I did.

R:  Were you effeminate as a child?

F:  I donÕt think so.  God I hope not.  IÕve always had a problem with guys being really effeminate when theyÕre gay because I never could make the connection of what your sex life has to do with how you behave.

R:  Did your parents give you any indication that they thought you were going to grow up to be gay?

F:  ThatÕs one of the major heartaches in my life.  I really want to come out but my father and I have no relationship at all, I donÕt even know where he lives.  My father was always a very Archie Bunkerish kind of guy, "Oh, faggots, fuck Ōem."  IÕd love to walk up to him some day and say, "Guess whoÕs gay?"

R:  He has no idea?

F:  No, I have never told my parents.  Actually, I still live with my mom and thatÕs the biggest stumbling block in my life because our relationship is kind of on eggs.  She loves to talk about how nice it would be to have a granddaughter, "My best friend, Dorothy, has a granddaughter and sheÕs so lucky to be a grandmother."  I gotta hear all this all of my life.

R:  So itÕs a big sore point between you and your mother?

F:  Well itÕs not a sore point because weÕve never discussed it.  I gotta live with the woman. If she were living in Pennsylvania and I were living here, it would be very easy to just deal with her on the phone once in a while.  But when youÕre facing somebody, day in and day out...I donÕt know maybe IÕm just a coward.

R:  How do you do it?

F:  You live with this constant knot in your stomach, thatÕs how you do it.  ItÕs funny, I always tell people when I meet them.  I never lie.  I try never to lie because my whole life has been a lie.  But the closest people in the world to me, my family and my close childhood friends, donÕt know the first thing about me.  And the longer it goes on the bigger the lie becomes.  How do you tell somebody youÕve been friends with since you were 9 years old, "By the way, I don't think I ever mentioned this to you, but I got something I gotta tell you."  How do you do that?  IÕve known this one guy since I was 9 years old and heÕs one of the very few people from grammar school that IÕve stayed close with and every time I look at him, I wanna tell him but I just canÕt.

R:  How do you express your sexuality?  Do you have a lot of gay friends that you hang out with on the weekends?

F:  I donÕt have that many gay friends, but I try to be "out" with anyone I meet now.  ItÕs the people whoÕve been part of my life since I was young that I have a problem with.

R:  So you feel like you have this Jeckyll and Hyde thing going on?

F:  Very good, I like that.

R:  Is that how you feel though?

F:  Yeah, I guess that would be accurate.

R:  Do you pursue relationships with other gay men or do you just have anonymous sex?

F:  Well I donÕt find anonymous sex as easy as someone whoÕs more out.  But maybe if I had more freedom, IÕd be more promiscuous.  Maybe not being so open has been a saving grace.

R:  So youÕre not promiscuous?

F:  I donÕt think I am, but I base that on other gay men that I know.   If I were to sit down with some of my straight friends, they would probably be horrified by some of the things that I have done, some of the things that IÕve seen and some of the people that IÕve known.  But IÕm a priest compared to other gay men that IÕve met.  You hear people talk about how many "hundreds of guys", and IÕve never done things like that.  I mean I couldnÕt even if I wanted to, I donÕt have the face or the body.

R:  You donÕt consider yourself attractive?

F:  No.

R:  Do you think youÕre ugly?

F:  No, but I know IÕm not Tom Cruise.

R:  But youÕre what a lot of gay men would want because you act "straight."

F:  Well IÕd love to meet them!  Please introduce me to them.

R:  When did you start to explore your sexuality with other men?

F: When I was 7 years old I used to get fascinated by Cheesecake pictures and Playboy pictures of women.

R:  Of women not men?

F:  Well, in those days there was no Playgirl.  When I was a little kid IÕd come across something with womenÕs tits in it and like every other kid I was fascinated.

R:  But would you jack off?

F:  Not at 7 years old, no.  The first time I ever jacked off I was 12.

R:   Do you remember the first time you ever ejaculated?

F:  Yeah and it very traumatic.  I never knew anything about sex or what your dick does other than go to the bathroom.  I donÕt remember if IÕd ever even had an erection before that.

R:  Then how did you learn to masturbate?

F:   By accident.  When I was in junior high The Exorcist had come out and I had read the book.  My mother had gotten it through her book of the month club and I snuck it out and I was reading it, just as I had with Jacqueline SuzannÕs Valley of the Dolls and all the other "adult books."  I was fascinated by The Exorcist,  and when the movie came out I was dying to see it, but it was rated R and I was too young to get in. Anyway, there was this whole big media hype of hiding what Linda Blaire looked like in full make up as the demon, but somebody in school got this magazine and there were a couple of pictures of Linda Blaire in the demon make-up.  The magazine was Playgirl  which at the time had just come out.  DonÕt ask me who among these kids got this thing, but everybody was looking at it.  And IÕm looking and I had NO idea what anything was.  You open up to the middle of it and thereÕs this man with no clothes on, and I was like, "Wow."  And IÕm so naive, IÕm still trying to find the Linda Blair pictures.  In fact, everybody else was borrowing this magazine and taking it home to study Linda, and IÕm believing this.  ThatÕs not what they took it home to study, we know that now.

R:  When did you figure that out?

F:  When it came my turn and I got to bring it home.  I was outside playing and I came in the house, and my mother was as white as a ghost.  She had been up in my room and saw the magazine on my bed.  Now I still didnÕt know anything, but my mother said, "Where did you get this?  Thank God your father didnÕt see this."  In my naivetˇ, I told her that Linda BlaireÕs pictures were in there and everybodyÕs been passing it around cause everybody was dying to see them.  And she says, "Yeah but look, what kind of a thing is this and what are you doing and how did they get this?  And who got this?"

R:  So did you jack off to that magazine?

F:  I did.  And then I took a real good look at it and what it was.

R:  Your mother let you keep the magazine?

F:  Well she knew that I was going to be bringing it back the next day.  She said, "Get that out of this house."  So that night in my bedroom, laying on the floor on my stomach with my legs kind of up in the air thumbing through this thing,  I start to see all that was there. Mr. Naive starts to wake up to why mom got so upset.  IÕm looking at these pictures and IÕm like, "wow" and IÕm getting really "wow," and the next thing I know I came right in my pants, just from laying on the ground on the hard floor.  IÕm thinking, "I didnÕt have to go to the bathroom, howÕd I wet my pant?"  I didnÕt know what it was!  That was the first time.  My parents had never discussed sex with me and we didnÕt have any thing in school.

R:  Were you able to connect that the discharge was related to looking at Playgirl?

F:  Oh it all started to add up.  Not long after that, one of the new books that mom got from the book of the month club was Everything you Wanted to Know About Sex but Were Afraid to Ask, and when nobody was looking I read it and it explained everything.

R:  Do you remember it feeling good?

F:  Oh yeah it felt wonderful!  And I immediately connected it to the arousal, but I didnÕt know the technical specifications of what goes on in men or in women.

R:  But now in this book it explained ejaculation?

F:  Oh yeah, I wished I had read it a month earlier then it would have been not nearly as traumatic.

R:  But was there a section on homosexuality in the book?

F:  There was maybe 2 or 3 pages.

R:  Did you read those pages?

F:  I read the whole book!  Yeah.

R:  Was it a revelation?

F:  It gave me a lot of info.  It was a very enlightening time between the magazine on the floor that night and then later finding the book and reading it.  All of a sudden, I woke up, you know, Mick was aware.

R:  Did you start jacking off all the time?

F:  I did, but I donÕt remember how often.  IÕm sure by the time I was in my late teens or twenties it was a daily occurrence.  In fact to this day,  IÕm still prone to fucking the mattress or the pillow because it happened that way the first time as opposed to by hand.

R:  So when you jack off now, do you rarely use your hand?

F:  More often IÕm into fucking the mattress or the floor or rubbing myself against something as opposed to using my hand.

R:  When did you first have sex with another man?

F:  Now weÕre jumping ahead quite a ways.  I must have been about 29, 30.  I was sexually active with women first.

R:  But your first ejaculation was caused by a man in a magazine?

F:  I already knew before that that there was something different about me.

R:  But then youÕre telling me you didnÕt actually have an experience with a man until you were 29?

F:  I went through denial for too many years, I wasted the best years of my life trying to be something that I wasnÕt.

R:  Straight?

F:  Yeah, I didnÕt like being treated different.  I didnÕt like the fact that people saw something in me that they didnÕt see in everybody else.  I wanted people to look at me and see what they saw in everybody else.

R:  Sleeping with women?

F:  Ultimately.  I mean when youÕre 12 you donÕt really think too much about that.

R:  Have you ever dated men?

F:  IÕve never been on a date.  I donÕt really think IÕve ever been officially on what you call a date.

R:  Does that mean youÕve never had a relationship with a man?

F:  IÕve never had a long term relationship.

R:  So letÕs go back to sex with women.  Were you thinking about men or were you enjoying the experience of being with a woman?

F:  I was not particularly thinking about men, but I was thinking, "Why isnÕt this working?"

R:  Was it important to you to have sex with women?

F:  The first time I had sex I was 17, and she was my first girlfriend.  It turned out not something as new to her as it was to me.  She had had a little experience.  Actually it was a good thing for me because I didnÕt know shit about what I was doing.  It was nice to have someone take me by the hand and lead the way. I suppose if you had had a camcorder in the corner filming, it was an adorable sight: me very nervous, not showing, not knowing, "Where do I go in?"  But the whole time I was thinking, "Why am I not more excited?  Why am I not like other guys who were just like Ōpussy, pussy, pussy, pussy... pussyÕ  Was I meant to be a priest?"  Then it all started coming back to me, jerking off thinking of guys, you hear your friends talking about whoÕs hot, look at her, look at that cheerleader over there, and IÕm lookinÕ at the football players.

R:  So did you have a problem getting a hard-on when you were with this girl?

F:  I didnÕt, but when youÕre 17...

R:  ItÕs not that hard.

F:  No it IS!

R:  It is hard....

F:  Literally.

R:  ...itÕs hard all the time.

F:  When youÕre 17, you gotta walk around with these long shirts all the time, it never goes away.  If only it were like that now.

R:  Did she give you a blow job?

F:  She did.

R:  And did you enjoy it?

F:  ThatÕs a very good question, I have never liked having my dick sucked.

R:  Never?

F:  To this day I do not like having my dick sucked.

R:  Even by men?

F:  I donÕt like it.  IÕm squeamish, IÕm like, "Watch with the teeth."

R:  Well what do you like?

F:  IÕm just more of a bottom boy.

R:  You love sucking dick?

F:  God, I live for it.  But I donÕt like having it done to me.

R:  Do you like to fuck or get fucked?

F:  I love to get fucked.  Only on a few odd occasions have I been the top.  Sometimes I think part of the reason I donÕt like to be a top is just the physical awkwardness.  IÕm a really little guy and for me to climb on some guy like Rex Chandler, whoÕs 6 feet 6, it feels more ridiculous than it must obviously look.  And the few times IÕve done it, theyÕve been guys my size or smaller.

R:  When you did it with guys who were smaller than you, did you enjoy fucking them?

F:  IÕve enjoyed it but itÕs not my thing.  IÕm a bottom.  But I have no regrets.  I have no regrets having had sex with women, but I donÕt think IÕd ever do that again.

R:  So youÕre living at home, youÕre closeted and you donÕt have a lot of gay friends, then where do you go to find men to suck and to get fucked by?

F:  Well itÕs never been easy.

R:  Where do you do it?

F:  I donÕt know, stand on a street corner and wait till somebody winks at me?  I wonder if you live in Manhattan if itÕs easier.  Anyway, when I initially decided that I was gonna pursue the gay life, I started buying all of the rags to find out where to go.  I hear about Fire Island, what is this Fire Island bullshit?  IÕm not not going down to the Florida Keys, what is this?  I gotta move to San Francisco?  So I tried to get an idea of where all the bars were, although I never liked bars.

R:  You never liked bars?

F:  I donÕt like bars.

R:  Did you do the bar scene for a while?

F:  I still do once in a while, but itÕs so clique-ish.  I have a friend who goes to Splash all the time and his description of these guys, wet under the showerheads, well that does sound interesting.  IÕd like to go there.  But to go to a bar, well, IÕm not much of a drinker, and IÕve always had this thing with going to the bars alone.  But itÕs a Catch 22, if you go with a friend and then you meet somebody, youÕre saddled with this friend you gotta drive home, and if go alone and you donÕt meet anyone, then youÕre just sitting there alone.  The thing is you need something, whether itÕs sex or an emotional pick up, and when you donÕt get it, it makes you feel all the worse.  ItÕs almost like you shouldnÕt have gone.  And thatÕs how I always feel walking out of those places, so thatÕs why IÕm not into it.

R:  If you were at a gay bar and a guy came up to you and said, "You are really hot, I would really like to talk about having sex with you tonight," would that be a turn off to you?  Or would you be refreshed by the fact that for once somebody has broken the way these bars tend to operate and been very up-front with you?

F:  I would be flattered, I think.

R:  You were 29 when you had sex with a man for the first time?

F:  Yes, I had gone through my 20s having sex with women.

R:  Not anything even close to having sex with a man during that period?

F:  Well the last relationship I was in with a woman, something did happen.  I was studying at the HB studio and there was a gal there, turned out she and I were the only two people from Jersey in this class.  Since we were both from New Jersey, we decided to drive home and back to school together.  Ultimately we ended up having a relationship.

R:  Sex?

F:  It was not only sexual, it became a true relationship.  To this day itÕs the only real relationship IÕve ever had.

R:  Were you in love with her?

F:  If you asked me that back then IÕd have said yeah, but looking back IÕd have to say no.

R:  How old were you?

F:  21.

R:  And you had sex with her a lot?

F:  Not as often as she wanted to.  I knew I really wasnÕt being me.  I was aware of it, but I wouldnÕt say it.  I wonder if she sensed it?  We never discussed my being potentially gay.  Anyway, they had these rooms in the studio that you could sign up for rehearsal with whoever youÕre doing your scene with.  But you could never get your name on a list to get a room.  So what we used to do is sit on the curb and just run our lines.  Now at that time there was one of those real raunchy bars, a leather and piss kind of hedonism of the seventies before AIDS place.  Naturally I never would have gone, but I knew it was there.  We all knew it was there.  So youÕd be sitting on the street and youÕd be reading, running your lines and all of a sudden youÕd hear "clang, clang, clang" coming closer and getting louder and louder.  YouÕd look up and it would be some guy in the bikerÕs outfit.  Anyway, this girl was always making comments like, "Why donÕt we go in there and check it out?"  IÕm like, "I donÕt really wanna go in there."

R:   You didnÕt get any excitement when you saw the leather men walking down the street?

F:  Well thatÕs never been my thing.  But sheÕs like, "That must be a turn on to guys"  And  I said, "Well, no."  I often wondered years later whether she was trying to feel me out to find out if there was a bisexuality or a homosexuality there that she sensed and that she wanted confirmation.   In the end, her old boyfriend came back and she said, "I hope you donÕt mind but I asked him to come over, I was dyinÕ to have him meet you." The guy comes over for a cup of tea.  And a couple of days later...

F:  ...got more than sympathy?

R:  Got more than sympathy..

F:  She says to me, "ThereÕs something I wanna run by you.  Peter and I were talking, and how would feel about being involved in a threesome?"   And me, Mr. Naive, says, "What you mean, you, me and him?"  And she said, "Yeah, we were talking."  Now I donÕt know if she was just kinky or if this was her way of wanting to show me the door, and I didnÕt stick around long enough to get the answers.

R:  You didnÕt take her up on it?

F:  No.

R:  Did you want to?

F:  No, he wasnÕt my type so that would have nixed it right there.

R:  How do you know he wasnÕt your type when youÕd never been with a man before?

F:  Well, you know what you find attractive.

R:  Yes, but if youÕd never been with a man before, it seems that you wouldnÕt be so choosy.

F:  Well I donÕt know if thatÕs the only reason I said no.  I just know that he was not someone that turned me on in any way, and being Mr. Repressed and Mr. Naive, the whole thing was just not there for me.

F:  My ego was a little bruised, I was thinking in terms of sheÕs just being nice, she really wants to get back with him...

R:  She was incredibly sexual, this woman.

F:  She was quite a hot tamale.

R:  So how did you meet the first man that you ever had sex with?

F:  It was an anonymous encounter at a sex club.

R:  But, IÕm sure you had opportunities to sleep with men between ages 21 and 29?

F:  I didnÕt, but I wanted them.

R:  Well you had an opportunity with your girlfriendÕs friend and you turned it down.

F:  I had an opportunity with that guy but there was nothing after that.

R:  Between 22 and 29 men never hit on you?  You never found men that you were intimate with that you could have had sex with?

F:  I donÕt think IÕve ever had a man hit on me.

R:  Oh come on!

F:  IÕm serious.  There have been times at the health club where these dirty old men follow you around the steam room, but they follow everybody.

R:  So youÕre 29 and you decide itÕs time for you to have sex with a man?

F:  As time went on, I started meeting gay people and making gay friends.  My first gay friend I met at a record collector show.  We ended up becoming friends first, then later it came out that we were both gay.

R;  Wait, how old were you at this point?

F:  25.

R:  So how did it come out that you were both gay if youÕd never had sex with a man?

F:  At this point I knew, even though I had never done the dirty.  I had come to accept what I was and what I was now going to go after.

R:  When did you have your last sexual encounter with a woman?

F:  21, 22.

R:  So are you telling me that from 22 to 25 you did not have sex with any women, but you still didnÕt have sex with any men?

F:  I went through the majority of my 20s totally sexually inactive.

R:  Totally sexually inactive except for jacking off?

F:  Right.

R:  Which you did a lot or not?

F:  At least once a day.

R:  So youÕre not having any sex.  Were you doing anything to find a man?

F:  I am not saying I didnÕt do anything about it.  As I said, I started to try to find where to go, I would buy all the magazines and get the HXs.  I was trying to find out where one go to find like minded people.

R:  What were you jacking off to in those days?

F:  At that point IÕm started to pick up gay male skin magazines.  ThatÕs what I do today as well.

R:  YouÕre still living at home?

F:  Yeah.

R:  So where are you keeping these magazines?

F:  Anywhere, up in the floorboards, under the attic, under the mattress, wherever one hides these things.

R:  Your mother doesnÕt find them?

F:  I donÕt know.  If she has sheÕs never discussed it.

R:  She never asks you why you arenÕt bringing any more women home?

F:  I always hear things like "I canÕt wait till I become a grandmother," but she never really questions me on anything.  She would throw the typical Catholic guilt around, but she never really questions.

R:  When you jack off, do you think about something different every time or do you replay the same fantasy?

F:  I just concentrate on the turn on of the guy.

R:  Was it one type of guy that you always jack off to?

F:  As IÕve gotten older IÕve diversified my tastes a little.  There are times now where I say  so and so is so hot and if you had said that to me five years ago I would have never thought so and so would turn me on.  But, before I was very specific, they had to be a very specific type.

R:  Which was what?

F:  A real white bred, Irish, blue eyed type.

R:  Masculine?

F:  Not masculine in that biker cap and chains, but just your average kind of guy.  Not a queen and not a put on butch.

R:  Was a big dick important to you?

F:  I have to say that always turns me on.

R:  The bigger the better?

F:  Size is a fascination.  In all fairness, when I was seven years old and IÕd come across a Playboy, the women with the big tits would grab my eye.

R:  The big tits would turn you on?

F:  Yeah.  So it was always a fascination with size.  Bigger is better.

R:  Now youÕre a small guy, do you think it has any reflection of you?  Do you have a small dick?  Or are you average?

F:  Average.  But right away you must think I have an insecurity about that, too, but I donÕt actually.  IÕve met so many guys who are six foot tall who have the same size dick that I have.  And obviously on me it looks a lot better than it does on them. Of course I donÕt think thereÕs a guy out there who doesnÕt wish he had just a little more.  But also, IÕm a bottom so my dick is not my primary concern and if itÕs somebody elseÕs concern, what am I gonna say?

R:  You feel fine with your dick?

F:  Well IÕm comfortable.  Having seen so many guys bigger than me who have no more, why should I complain?

R:  But what you want is a big dick though?

F:  You know why I want it, because itÕs a drawing card.  I would just like to have a drawing card, and it doesnÕt have to be that.  If I had beautiful blue eyes, if I were six feet tall with a buff body, or if I were one of the dream team models, or if I had money, it would be nice to have something to get people interested.  Of course, there are always things that will take precedence over size. Emotion always takes precedence over physical.

R:  EmotionÕs important?

F:  If I fall for somebody and IÕve never seen them nude, IÕm not gonna un-fall.

R:  Do you fall a lot?

F:  At the drop of a pin.

R:  What does it take for you to fall in love?

F:  I wish it was harder.  I wish I had thicker skin.

R:  What does it take for you to fall in love?

F:  I just have to look at them, one of the first things that always grabs me is eyes, or a smile, or the way somebody speaks, or the way that they carry themselves.  But, like I said these faux butch guys, I couldnÕt even look twice at that.  Could be the nicest guy in the world but that turns me off.  It has nothing to do with a person, it could be someone I see across a room and IÕll look and IÕll say "wow."  And it might not even be somebody that everybody would particularly drool over.

R:  Do you think your tastes are different from most people?

F:  Different than most peopleÕs?

R:  Like everybody wants Tom Cruise or everybody wants a body builder.

F:  I wouldnÕt want a body builder, but I would never throw Tom Cruise out of the bedroom.

R:  So, letÕs go back to guy you met at the record collectors show, did you have sex with him?

F:  I never had sex with him.  He was my first gay friend and at that time I thought, IÕve gotta start to meet like minded people.  IÕve gotta start being out to them because I donÕt wanna lie any more.

R:  And you perceived that trying to meet other people who were gay would be a step in the right direction?

F:  Absolutely and anyone that I dealt with in the future I would try very hard not hide it.

R:  Did you talk to this guy about your lack of sex?

F:  Mainly his lack of sex, I mean you wanna talk about a priest.

R:  So one of the first gay people you met was also not having sex?

F:  We had a lot in common, you can see why we became friends.

R:  ItÕs amazing you guys didnÕt hook up and start having sex together.

F:  We just met as friends, there was never a physical attraction.  When we first met we didnÕt even know each other was gay.

R:  How old was he?

F:  He was 20 years old and obsessed with Dynasty, this was how it started to come out.  We started talking about our obsessions with certain celebrities, Joan Collins, Maxwell Caulfield.  I donÕt even remember how, but ultimately we confessed to one another.

R:  Was that the first time you ever told anyone you were gay?

F:  IÕm not sure. I donÕt remember it being that difficult cause I started to sense it in him before we discussed it.  So it was very easy then to throw some hints out and know what you were gonna hear. So if he was the first person I told it was a very easy situation.

R:  Did he know that he was probably not the only gay man in America who was obsessed with Dynasty?  Was he connected to the gay community?

F:  He was worse than me.  You wanna talk about naive and sheltered.

R:  Yet he was connected to the gay community through his Dynasty connection.

F:  But he never went to bars.  You know this was a guy that was always afraid of New York City.  Eventually, I started going to the clubs and stuff and actually ended up becoming a pretty frequent visitor.

R:  But not till you were 29?

F:  There about.

R:  Okay, so letÕs get to when youÕre 29 and itÕs time for you to have sex with another man.

F:  I found it very difficult to find men.  I used to see all these ads, and I thought that was the way to go.  I would buy these rags, I tried bars and I joined a health club, interesting things always came out of that.

R:  Did you have sex at the health club?

F:  IÕve done it a number of times, but IÕm jumping ahead.

R:  So youÕre 29, youÕve got all these rags, you hear about these places to go.  You just could never find anyone, is that what youÕre telling me?

F:  Right.

R:  Did you go to sex clubs and not do anything before you were 29?

F:  No, I didnÕt even know about them really.

R:  Do you remember the first time you ever walked into a sex club?

F:  I was a nervous wreck.  I believe it was the Zone and at that time it was really raunchy.

You would walk in and hear whipping sounds and thereÕs a guy bent over the pool table gettinÕ his ass whipped.  I had never seen anything like this before.  YouÕd walk through the dark corridors, and they were lined with guys doing things I didnÕt think I could do in front of so many people.  You couldnÕt talk to people, you could just barely see their faces.  But I thought hereÕs a good place, itÕs not what I really want, forget any notion of any emotion, but itÕs a good place to start.  So thatÕs what I did.  Actually I would have to say the majority of my sexual encounters have been anonymous, faceless, in the dim corridors of those kind of places.

R:  So how long had you gone to The Zone before you actually did anything?

F:  To The Zone?  I maybe went there once or twice and just walked around, but did nothing.  Then finally I got comfortable enough to actually go in and venture into the crowds.

R:  Do you remember the first thing you ever did sexually with a man?

F:  I wouldnÕt know who he was or be able to give you details about the guy, but I gave him head.

R:  ThatÕs the first thing you ever did, give head?

F:  Yeah.  I had been practicing on dildos for a long time.

R:  Oh, we missed this chapter.

F:  Well we keep jumping.  Getting into my later 20s, I started to buy a lot of porn videos and IÕm turned on by the Mark HarmonÕs and the Lee RiderÕs, and I started experimenting on myself sexually other than just jerking off.  IÕd buy dildos to see what that was like because you would read the things in the magazines about how intense your orgasm is when youÕve got something up your rear end.  I guess thatÕs kind of what got me started toward the bottom mentality.

R:  So you would fuck yourself with a dildo at home?

F:  At that time very sporadically, but through the years IÕve jammed myself in ways that I think would make most guys cringe.  I cringe when I think about what IÕve done to myself over the years.

R:  To your anus?

F:  And orally.

R:  You would suck the dildos?

F:  Yeah, to practice because I knew this was something I was going to do to another person at some point in time.

R:  Were they big dildos?

F:  They were all different sizes.  I tried with smaller ones first and then I worked up to the Jeff Stryker model.

R:  So your first experience was with Jeff Stryker?

F:  Yeah.  Anyway, I knew it was something that I wanted to do, but itÕs something youÕve got to work towards and build up to.  You start with the five inch dildo and you end up with the nine inch.  ItÕs not just something you plow into.

R:  Were you embarrassed to go buy dildos?

F:  No because I would go to a town that I didnÕt live in and where I didnÕt know anybody, and then I would come into the city and go in all these places and start looking at the videos and the magazines and the toys.

R:  So you have a very active sex life.

F:  Just without men.  Anyway, I used to frequent The Zone a lot because IÕd become friends with the bartender.  That was a shame, that place, when Guliani got into office he wanted them gone and little by little it happened.   First he took away their liquor license, and then they were busting people for giving head, so now they had to have signs all over the place "Lips above hips".  And anyone getting caught doing it was ejected.  Happened to me once or twice.

R:  For sucking dick?

F:  After the "lips above hips" rule, yeah.

R:  So the first man you ever gave a blow job to was at The Zone?

F:  Yeah he was sitting in a corner, like an open invitation.  I didnÕt get anybody stopping and giving me a look, a grab, a touch or a feel.  And I thought all right, I will walk and I will go after what IÕm interested in and, of course, the hottest guys are always the ones with twelve others around them so you canÕt get near them.  So anyway, the first time guy I could not describe to you, but he was sitting on a chair with his pants down to his ankles and he was just playing with himself.  And who was I to say no?  So that was the first one and there have been so many...

R:  What was it like that first time?

F:  It was kind of exciting, it was kind of nerve wracking, it was also kind of nothing because this setting wasnÕt really what I wanted.  I wanted to be alone with somebody, but I accepted it was for what it was, and you gotta remember that by this point the whole AIDS thing had already started.

R:  You came out in the AIDS heyday?

F:  When I was first becoming sexually active with women, you never thought about AIDS.   I never wore a rubber, and it was just a question of the rhythm method and whenÕs a good day and make sure I pull out cause we donÕt wanna get you pregnant.  I never thought what if these girls have VD and they give it to me?  But once all that was over with and I started with guys, the AIDS thing had already happened and so all of my nervousness and apprehension became compounded.  When IÕd be in these sex clubs, the guys that you would see go through like six guys in an hour, no matter how gorgeous they were I would say no, IÕm not going near that.  ThatÕs a high risk.  I would always try to look for the ones who had just come in through the door, cause I didnÕt want sloppy seconds either.

R:  Do you think that prolonged your experience with a man?

F:  AIDS?

R:  Do you think that kept you from going or no?

F:  No, I think it was just a question of not knowing where to go and not being able to find it.   I still would have proceeded safely and discriminated about who it was gonna be.

R:  So when you sucked this guy for the first time, did you feel confident that oral sex was not a risk for you?

F:  At that time I was very paranoid because I didnÕt know too much.  I was a little freaked out.  I was freaked out by my first time with someone whoÕs face I canÕt even see.

R:  Did he cum in your mouth?

F:  No.

R:  Did you want him to?

F:  I wouldnÕt have wanted him to.  After that, there were many encounters in many places and multiple guys at once up until Crudey Rudy got into office and started with all of this "lips above hips" and closing places.  Now everything is just jerk off places, thereÕs no more sex.

R:  But after you did it with this guy, how quick did you have another experience?

F:  I went back a week later.  I got at a point where I would go to these place every Friday or Saturday night.

R:  You were there on a regular pattern?

F:  And there were God knows how many in a night.

R:  That you would do?  In the age of AIDS in the face of AIDS?

F: I was very paranoid, but I figured as long as someone is not cumming in my mouth IÕm not going to worry too much.  I wasnÕt into sucking with a condom, or using saranwrap for rimming.

R:  Did you rim a lot of guys?

F:  ItÕs one of my favorite sexual acts.

R:  Do you remember the first time you ever rimmed somebody?

F:  It was in one of those places, I canÕt tell you who he was or any thing about him.

R:  Was he clean?

F: He appeared to be.

R:  Do you care?

F:  I was always very discriminating about never going near any guy that I had seen with six other guys in the evening.  Who the hell am I to be discriminating?

R:  Well how do you know what they did that morning?

F:  Yeah, but you can only try.  You can only attempt to try to use common sense and use your eyes and I always did.

R:  Was it scary and weird the first time you were with somebody?

F:  No, I loved it.

R:  You loved it right away?

F:  I knew it was something I wanted to do and I loved it.  I used to see it in videos and I said I canÕt wait to try that.

R:  To rim someone?

F:  Yeah.

R:  Now do you like rimming a certain type of guy?

F:  As much as I love to rim, I will only do that with certain people.  As for other things,  if I met the right guy, God knows what kind of kink, like maybe he brings up the idea of scat, God knows what IÕll say.  ItÕs gotta be the right person, and itÕs not all about a big dick and itÕs not all about being gorgeous, itÕs all about the person and the different things that draw you to him.

R:  Did you ever get anything from women, like hepatitis?

F:  Nothing.  No diseases.  IÕve never had the clap,  IÕm HIV negative, I was tested not even a month ago.

R:  Are you very responsible sexually or do you expect to test positive any day?

F:  I have a fear, but there are guys who when they tell me what theyÕve done I think what a pig and IÕm a priest.  IÕve never had any particular reason to think IÕve contracted it.  But, yet when you get tested itÕs the most horrible wait.  But IÕve never had anal sex without a rubber.  IÕve always wished I could.

R:  Was it hard for you to negotiate safe sex with guys you meet?

F:  IÕve never had a problem with that.

R:  Never?

F:  No, but unsafe sex is something that IÕve always wanted to do, you think about what people used to do and the stories guys tell me and the things you see in the old porns and think hubba hubba.  Exchanging bodily fluids is just something we donÕt do anymore and I missed out on that shit and I regret that sometimes.

R:  Have you ever let a guy cum in your mouth?

F:  No.

R:  Do you ever think you ever will?

F:  I would consider it with the right guy in a relationship.

R:  Do you want a relationship or do you just want to have anonymous sex?

F:  I would love a relationship, but itÕs very hard.

R:  YouÕve never had it though?

F:  No, Mick has never been on a date or been in a relationship.   Everything has always been anonymous.

R:  What about personal ads?

F:  IÕve never gotten anything through a personal.  IÕve placed them and IÕve answered them, but IÕve never gotten anything from them.

R:  Do you mean no oneÕs ever written to you or youÕve gotten responses and nothingÕs appealed to you?

F:  I donÕt think IÕve ever gotten a response.  Even those 900 things where you call, you leave your number, I never get a call-back.

R:  YouÕve taken ads out like in HX, saying IÕm a this, this, this, this...?

F:  IÕve put them in and IÕve answered them and, of course, many people falsify.  I wonder if I falsify and say IÕm five foot eleven, nine inch dick, tan, buff, IÕd start getting responses.  But, of course, like a jerk, IÕm honest and nobody responds!

R:  No one ever has responded to the personal ads youÕve placed?

F:  And no one has ever gotten back to me when IÕve answered them.

R:  No oneÕs ever written you a letter saying IÕd like to meet you, you sound fine?

F:  IÕve never had that.  Back in the days before the 900 numbers, when they were all done through mail, I placed ads and had people answer my ads, theyÕd send a little letter and once I wrote back I would never hear from them again.

R:  What did your ad say?

F:  Oh I couldnÕt remember, I just described myself, honestly.

R:  Did you say IÕm looking for someone to marry, settle down and listen to classical music with?

F:  No, these were "sex wanted" ads.

R:  Did you describe yourself as a bottom?

F:  I think I must have because youÕd want people to know that.

R:  Have you hired hustlers?

F:  IÕve done that twice. The first time was like two years ago, the second time was six months later.  The first experience was very nice, the second one was not so great.

R:  What was the first one like?

F:  If I had to describe the guy, he was a dead ringer for Johnny Hanson.  Nice guy from California, and when you look like he did and youÕre built like he was, you have a means to make money, and so he did.

R:  How much did you pay him?

F:  A hundred.

R: And where did you meet him?

F:  His apartment.

R:  Was it clean, was it nice?

F:  Very nice.  The whole experience was very nice.  I never had a moral problem with that and I would do it more often to be honest with you, but I have a financial problem with it.  But I was very horny and he sounded great in his ad.  I called him, he sounded like a nice guy on the phone.  I got there, he was exactly what I was into.  It was really nice and the only thing I didnÕt like about it was that IÕm the type of person that to really enjoy everything, I have to be relaxed.  So, the problem was that this guy got paid by the hour, and heÕs got a clock sitting right there and *ding* it goes and goodbye!   YouÕre under the pressure and if you have in your mind what you wanna do, you better squeeze it in within that hour.  ThatÕs not very relaxing.

R:  Cause you felt the time clockÕs ticking?

F:  I would rather have dealt with someone who paid per encounter than per hour.

R:  Was he gay?

F:  Yeah.  He was physically incredible, he was a nice man, it was a nice situation and I had only that one complaint.

R:  But you never hired him again?

F:  Well like I said, finances is a big problem.

R:  But you went to a different hustler the next time?

F:  Just to try something different.  And this guy was a nice guy, but physically not my type at all.  Now we learn what part of the problem is with the ads.  If I ever did it again, I would make it very clear up front to meet first and then decide whether IÕm interested.  To commit to something on the phone, then get there and find out this is not your type and the guy has already pulled the money out of your hand, is just not a pleasant situtation.

R:  He misrepresented himself in the ad?

F:  I donÕt know if he misrepresented himself, but he wasnÕt my type.

R:  Was he cute?  Would people think he was hot?

F:  IÕm sure plenty of people would.  He was a body builder, and he was one of these people that canÕt get away from the mirror long enough to come over to you.  He wanted to pose, wanted to be worshipped, and IÕm not really into that shit.

R:  So, youÕve only hired hustlers twice?

F:  Only twice.  I thought about it a million times, always clipping ads out of HX and Next.

R:  YouÕve actually clipped the ads?

F:  I rip the page out then look in my bank account and forget it.  I donÕt have a moral problem with it, if thatÕs whatÕll get me laid with a real hot guy, fine.

R:  If money was no object, would you rather hire hustlers or find anonymous sex in the clubs?

F:  With five hundred people around in the clubs, I would rather be alone with one person.  And if thatÕs gonna cost money, I have no problem with that, but having the money, thereÕs the problem.

R:  Have you met men at the sex clubs that youÕve gone home with?

F:  IÕve tried, IÕve slipped people my phone number, and itÕs like the ads, I just never seem to get any bites. IÕve done that at the gym, IÕve done that at the clubs, IÕve done that in bars, IÕve never gotten any bites that way.

R:  Do you think hiring hustlers then is the easy alternative to all this rejection?

F:  When you go through so many months of not having sex and youÕre horny, and on top of that youÕre going through situations where youÕre trying and failing and nothing is happening, and let me look under the couch and see if I got a spare hundred dollars?

R:  Have you ever had guys to your house?

F: No, because of my living situation, IÕve always had to do things out.  There was this one time though.  I had been doing some work in my attic, trying to make a storage place out of a crawl space.  But, IÕm no Bob Villa so I had to hire somebody.  I went to a Home Depot place where they have the installation sales desk.  IÕm talking to this guy, and never picked up that he was gay, I mean he was living with his girlfriend.  He had given me his phone number, and he said that if I had any questions or needed any help to call him.  So I called and Alice, the girlfriend, answered the phone. Anyway, we set up the appointment for him to come over.  And, of course, the day of our appointment IÕm sick with something like the flu, fever, runny nose, everything.  He comes to the house and the first thing I said to him was to keep a distance because IÕm probably contagious.  "No problem," he says,  "Do you think I could have something to drink?"  I opened the refrigerator and named what was there, milk, orange juice... "Do you have any whiskey?"  I was thinking this guy is working, this is kind of strange, but "Do you want it on the rocks?"  He takes a drink, obviously he was a nervous wreck and trying to calm himself down.  In a couple of minutes, heÕs nice and comfortable and weÕre talking.  I said, "Well, you wanna go take a look at the attic?"  So we go up in the attic, and at this point I hadnÕt laid the floor yet, and you gotta be careful to balance on the beams because you donÕt wanna go through the ceiling.  So we get the ladder, once IÕm alone up in the attic with him, heÕs gets real close to me.  Now to be honest with you, he really was cute and there was no moral dilemma about grabbing a guy from his girlfriend, actually thatÕs always a turn on.  But I just felt like such shit, I could barely hold my head up I had such a fever and I said to him,  "Look, I had no idea till you got here what you really came for and itÕs not anything personal but I donÕt want you catching whatever I have."

R:  You turned down the Home Depot man?

F:  Yes.

R:  What are you thinking?

F:  No, you donÕt understand.

R:  People fantasize their whole lives about how the Home Depot man is gonna come over and fix their roof and...

F:  You donÕt understand.  I couldnÕt wait for him to go, so that I could just lay down.  I said to him, "Look, this is just timing.  Why donÕt you come back.   Call me or IÕll call you."  And that was it.  Six months later I went back the Home Depot to get something else done, he wasnÕt even working there any more.

R:  Was he hunky?

F:  Not hunky.  He was your average guy, five foot nine maybe, not a body, not a pumped up kind of guy, cute, southern accent, 20s.  I had hoped when I felt better I would be able to hook up with him again, but you know timing is everything.

R:  What about cars?  Did you do it in cars?

F:  I did it once with a guy in a car that I met in the gym, and we went out in the parking lot afterwards.  There have been guys throughout the years that IÕve met through friends, theyÕve all been one time things that were never heard from again.  But none of these are nearly as interesting as the pick ups at the gym or the hustlers or the porn star.  Oh I gotta tell you about the porn star.

R:  HowÕd that happen?

F:  I had a liaison with a porn star.

R:  Who?

F: I canÕt tell you that.

R:  Oh yeah you can.

F:  No, I canÕt really, I canÕt do that.

R:  A famous porn star?

F:  He is now, at the time he was just starting out.

R:  HowÕd you meet him?

F:  I had never been to the Eros Theater where guys lap dance and stuff, but I had always wanted to.  But before that we were at a friendÕs place watching the Robin Byrd Show, which let me tell you, we donÕt get in Jersey.  They popped in a tape, they wanted me to see what it was all about and out comes this guy in a sailorÕs uniform, and he pulls it off and heÕs totally naked.  We donÕt see naked men on cable in New Jersey.  And this guy was a babe.  And my friends said that he was appearing that week at the Eros.  And I said, "When you say appearing, what do they do?  Like what kind of a show?"  So they were trying to describe to me what these guys do and I said that I would love to see something like that and I would love to see this guy!   So they pulled out the HX and there was the ad showing that he was appearing, and this was his last day appearing.  So Darren (with a lot of persuasion) and I clip the two dollar off coupon and make our way down.  But just as we get there, Darren gets cold feet and decides to go home, but I wasnÕt about to go anywhere.  It was very similar to the feeling of the first time in The Zone, and I was like IÕm a grown man, why should I feel so nervous?  But I was really nervous because I didnÕt know what to expect.  So you go in and they have the one room where they have videos and then the main room where the dancers are gonna dance.  IÕm a little early, but I go in and sit down.  I really donÕt know the protocol of like when they come up to you and youÕre supposed to pay money to keep them there?

R:  Uh huh, you have to stick it in their sock.

F:  But this is all new to me.  So the generic dancers come out and they come by you and theyÕre waiting for you to whip out something for them to stick in their boot which I didnÕt because I was waiting to see this one guy.  While the other guys are dancing around, I get up and walk out into the lounge area, waiting for them to announce the man I came for.   All of a sudden I look up and thereÕs him standing on the phone, talking to somebody.  He turns around, looks at me and gives me the biggest smile.  And I gave him the biggest smile back.  He got off the phone and came walking toward me and I said, "You know, youÕre the man I came to see."  And he was so flattered, like I said this guy was not known yet.  It was another fifteen minutes before he was supposed to go on so we just sat in the lounge and started talking.  He was this real sweet guy, naturally from California, as they all are.  And he sits down next to me, getting closer and then heÕs like rubbing his leg against my leg.  And I just thought, "Wow."  It came time for him to do his show and I still didnÕt know what the protocol was, I took a five dollar bill out and he came over and I slipped it to him and he spent a good deal of time lap dancing by me, more than anybody else.

R:  Was he hot?

F:  He was very hot.

R:  Did you ever see him again or was that it?

F:  Well I spent the whole night with him, till about three in the morning.

R:  How?

F:  Well after the show, we ended up talking some more, and Eros had put him up in a hotel a couple of blocks away.  He said it was just getting around dinner hour, letÕs grab a slice of pizza.  So between the shows we go and get food and hang out in this dive of a hotel.  Now heÕs sitting down on a chair and IÕm standing right behind him, walking around, looking around the room, checking out this dive.  He asks,  "Could I talk you into rubbing my shoulders, cause IÕm kind of tense?"  And I started rubbing his shoulders and..then it was time to go back, and we go back.   He says, "Well come in with me, come in as my guest, you donÕt have to pay again, IÕll just bring you in with me."  So I see his show again, then we went back to the hotel again, this time we get a bottle of wine.  WeÕre having a little wine, weÕre talking and...at this point IÕm pretty sure thereÕs gonna be sex.  But you know thereÕs no time between these shows.  I saw his show about four times in one night.  Then finally after his last show which must have been around midnight, we went back to his hotel and we had quite an encounter.  I have to say it was one of the best encounters IÕve ever had in my life.  Even had a shower with him afterwards.  It was really nice.

R:  ThatÕs amazing.

F:  He was telling me all about himself.  Gave me his address and phone number, but to this day IÕve never had the nerve to pick up the phone and call the guy.

R:  WhatÕs wrong with you?

F:  Just a second...

R:   See now, here you go!

F:  ...heÕs in California.

R:  But here you go!

F:  WhatÕs he gonna do, hop a plane and come back here?

R:  But you complain about these guys you send your ad to and they never give a response, you give your phone number to them and same thing.  Now you meet the hottest porn star, who youÕve been lusting after...

F:  No, not been lusting after, I didnÕt know who he was until that day.

R:  But you met him that night?  And you were really into him, he was really hot.  He gives you his phone number and you never call it!  What does that tell you about the gay community?

F:  Yeah but be realistic, what am I gonna call a guy in California and say?

R:  They travel all the time.  They come to New York all the time.

F:  What IÕm gonna call him up and say, "Hi, it was like really great.  Too bad you live in California!"

R:  You never know.  A lot of these guys donÕt go home with their clients, with people they lap danced for.  There was probably something about you that really appealed to him.

F:  There is a little P.S. to this that I didnÕt tell you.  I said he was a nice guy, but how nice is a guy that cheats on a boyfriend?  And his boyfriend is also a porn star.

R:  So that was one of your best sexual experiences?

F:  Oh it was incredible.  But then again you know, he was a pro.

R:  Do you like to kiss and things like that?

F:  Oh yeah.  And I was really surprised this guy was willing to do that because I didnÕt think a guy like that would want to kiss. Unless someone is paying them an extra hundred to do it on the video, but otherwise I donÕt think they would.  But he was quite romantic.

R:  Did he have a big dick?

F:  I didnÕt take a tape measure out, but he was generous.  I wouldnÕt say he was huge, huge, but he was nice.

R:  But he was what you wanted?

F:  I had a good time with him.

R:  Would you give up anonymous sex if you found a man to settle down with?

F:  I say I want to, but the problem is if I were to get involved in a relationship, itÕs gonna be quite a haul.  ItÕs not gonna be easy because itÕll involve me coming out completely.  You canÕt have a relationship and keep it hidden from everyone in your life.

R:  But do you yearn for it?

F:  Oh yeah.  I would love to.  I would love to.

R:  Do you wanna fall asleep with somebody?

F:  I would love to.  IÕve never had sex where I didnÕt leave when it was done.  IÕve never had the opportunity to wake up with a guy.

R:  But youÕd like to?

F:  Sure I would.

R:  YouÕve never seen anybody twice?

F:  Never seen anybody twice.

R:  YouÕve never had sex with anybody twice?

F:  There have been guys in the gym, in the steam rooms and stuff that IÕve encountered more than once.  But thereÕs never been anyone whoÕs place I went to or whoÕs bed I was in that I ever went twice.

R:  Do you think thatÕs about you?

F:  I think itÕs just bum  timing.  ThatÕs what I think it is.

R:  You donÕt think it has anything to do with you being afraid of a commitment?

F:  You think itÕs a self fulfilling prophesy?  Is that what youÕre asking me?

R:  Do you ever think that if you wanted a relationship, you would be in a relationship, and thereÕs something there that makes you not really want a relationship.

F:  Well everybodyÕs story is different.  I would hope itÕs nothing IÕve done or said.  I hope itÕs just the stars not being aligned in the right place.

R:  YouÕre hoping that soon you will find someone.

F:   Oh I would love it.  But then you get to a certain point in your life where you say, "Well if this didnÕt happen to me when I was 20, what are my odds now?"  But to go back to the porn star and why I never called him, I guess he was lonely and horny.  I guess he thought I was cute, but he was in a relationship that he was really into, and he said something to me that really stuck with me and I would think about it often from time to time.  I donÕt remember the exact words, but what he said was that when youÕre in that business, any relationship, straight, gay, friendship, relative, lover, takes work and desire.  It takes commitment and it takes some doing.  So many guys, I remember him telling me, would look at me and thereÕs interest, but thereÕs a back off.  Like theyÕd see you as sex but they donÕt see you as relationship material.  ThereÕs this thing where people are afraid to approach, maybe theyÕre intimidated by you, theyÕre afraid of not being able to deal with being with you.  You know, it must take a hell of a lot to commit to somebody who for a living is having sex with other guys and getting paid and you have to really know in your heart that youÕre where their heart is.  He had this guy and theyÕve been having a real relationship, and I thought how wonderful to find somebody like that.  And I remembered thinking, I donÕt think I would have a problem with that.  I donÕt know if itÕs just because IÕve gone so far into my life without ever having done it, not to sound desperate but how choosy are you gonna get?  I really think that if I met the right guy and really knew it was real, I would be willing to do whatever it took to make it work.

R:   Even just having one sex partner?

F:  Yeah.

R:  You would willing to do that?

F:  Oh yeah.

R:  When you think of settling down, what do you picture the guy would be like?

F:  I never had a preconceived notion.  I just always hoped IÕd find him.

SCENE: GABRIEL-32 PAGES

Hispanic-mature-teacher-HIV positive-serious drug user-serial monogamist

G:  My name is Gabriel and IÕm a forty year old, gay, Hispanic male.  IÕm going to school, hoping to earn a degree in accounting, but right now I work as a peer educator speaking about HIV, AIDS and STDs.  I grew up somewhat poor but very spoiled.

R:  Have you been gay your whole life?

G:  I came out of the closet when I was fifteen.  When I was going to public school I was touching the guys and they were touching me.  I guess I was molested.

R:  Really? Students or teachers?

G:  They were students and kids that lived in the neighborhood.  We used to have anal sex or just suck each other off.

R:  When did you first know you werenÕt attracted to women?

G:  Before the molesting incidents, I was attracted to women.  I fooled around with a woman when I was younger and I liked it.  But after I got molested and began fooling around with the guys I decided I preferred being with the guys.

R:  Do you feel that the molestation was a negative thing?

G:  At the time I thought I was being abused.  It kept happening and I never told anyone about it  so I just kept doing it.  Later when I went to high school in Chelsea, I would meet guys, go to their houses and have sex.

R:  How old were you?

G:  I was seventeen.

R:  From fifteen until now youÕve always had sex with men and been openly gay?

G:  Yeah.

R:  When you came out at fifteen did you tell your parents?  Did you start going to gay bars?

G:  When I was seventeen I started going to gay bars.  I would hang out and instead of going home I would stay in the house of the person I met.  But, I was a person who kept everything to myself.

R:  So no one knew.

G:  No.

R:  Did they suspect?

G:  Yeah, my father would ask me if I was gay, but I would tell him no.

R:  Why would he ask you that?

G:  I was always hanging out with men.

R:  Were you hanging out with really effeminate men?

G:  Butch guys.

R:  Were you effeminate when you were younger?

G:  No.

R:  So he just thought because you were hanging out with men that you were gay?

G:  Most of my friends are males so he would ask me.  My mother never really questioned it, but I guess she eventually found out.  They say mothers always know.  But, I wasnÕt the type that was flamboyant and stuff like that.

R:  Did you bring guys to your house?   Did you get phone calls?

G:  They would call the house and I would bring one or two very butch guys over.  But I didnÕt carry on in front of my parents, I respect them.  ThatÕs why I moved out of my house when I was seventeen.  I lived with a roommate, I had lovers.

R:  So you didnÕt just have anonymous sex, you had lovers?

G:  Yeah.

R:  Did you prefer having a lover or anonymous sex?

G:  At that time I preferred having a lover.  After I would break up with one lover, I would meet other guys and fool around until I settled down with someone else.

R:  Were you monogamous in relationships?

G:  Yeah.

R:  Really?

G:  My last relationship lasted for thirteen years.

R:  Really?

G:  Until he passed away.

R:  What did he die of?

G:  The virus.

R:  Did you have an open relationship with him and fool around with other people?

G:  There were times when we had threesomes and at times we fooled around with other people but we always came back to each other.

R:  Did you fight a lot?

G:  Sometimes.  He was jealous.  Sometimes he would make me so upset that I would leave for a week or two.  He would look for me all over the place and I would fool around with other people then come back and my stuff was all torn up.  But heÕd replace it and we would make up and then after awhile weÕd have another argument and the cycle would begin again.  He was so jealous and co-dependent, I guess I was co-dependent too, but he was always depending on me.

R:  Did he go out and have affairs?

G:  Yeah.  He was the type that if I did something bad, heÕd just throw it back at me.

R:  So you got together when you were how old?

G:  I was around twenty five when I met him.

R:  Were you looking for a boyfriend/lover or did it just happen?

G:  Well before I met him I had a lover but he died in a car accident.

R:  So youÕve had several long term relationships?

G:  IÕve had a bunch.

R:  When you were seventeen and moved out of the house, did you find a lover right away?

G:  Yeah.  My first roommate and I were lovers for five years.

R:  Then he got in a car accident?

G:  No, that was a different one.

R:  Why did you break up with the first one after five years?

G:  I found out he was cheating on me and it just wasnÕt working.

R:  Now were you really in love with him?

G:  That was my first love.

R:  You thought it would be forever?

G:  Yeah.

R:  Were you cheating on him?

G:  No.

R:  You werenÕt?

G:  No.

R:  Was he older than you?

G:  Yeah, much older. I was seventeen, he was like twenty-seven.

R:  Was he a top or bottom or were you guys versatile?

G:  He was a bottom.

R:  Did he cheat on you right away?

G:  It took about a year or two.

R:  Did you break up or did he drop you?

G:  I broke up with him.  I guess I was young at the time and I guess I wanted to be free.

R:  So you broke up and got into another relationship right away?

G:  No, about six months later.

R:  And how long was that one?

G:  Three years.

R:  And thatÕs the guy that died in the car accident?

G:  No thatÕs a different one.

R:  ThatÕs a different one?  And what happened with that one?

G:  We broke up because things werenÕt working.

R:  Were either of you unfaithful?

G:  I was fooling around.  I was still young and in my crazy days.

R:  But you didnÕt fool around with your first one?

G:  No.

R:  So you kind of changed?

G:  I changed.

R:  Why do you think you changed?

G:  I donÕt know.  Maybe I was still hurt or maybe I got into a relationship that I really didnÕt want.

R:  Do you always hopscotch to relationships?

G:  No.  I happened to meet this person and I was attracted to him and he was attracted to me.

R:  Do you fall in love easily?

G:  Yeah.

R:  Too easily?

G:  Sometimes.

R:  When you meet men do you think, "Oh please be my next lover?"  Or do you have an instinct where you meet someone and you know right away this will be my next lover?

G:  No, things just happen.

R:  So did the second guy dump you or did you dump him?

G:  No, we just broke up cause we werenÕt getting along.  After the second one came the third one which lasted for five years.  HeÕs the one that died in a car accident.

R:  So you had one for five, one for three, one for five, and then one for thirteen, four long term relationships.

G:  Yeah.

R:  Did your lovers have things in common?

G:  We worked together like I paid my half he paid his half.  ThatÕs the kind of relationships I like to be in where everything is equal.

R:  What were the guys like?  Would you say they were similar?

G:  Well most of them respected me and treated me nice.  Most of them were really nice guys.

R:  None of them beat you or were assholes?

G:  The only one was my last relationship.  We would have fights over his jealousy.

R:  But the other three werenÕt jealous?

G:  No, not that much.

R:  So there werenÕt that many similarities?

G:  They just treated me nice.

R:  WhatÕs interesting is that youÕve pretty much been in a relationship from when you were seventeen up until now, your forties.  YouÕve had continuous boyfriends.  Why do you always have a boyfriend?

G:  I guess because I treat them nice and I like to be treated nice, too.

R:  Is it important for you to have a boyfriend and are you looking now?

G:  Yeah.  IÕm seeing someone now, but itÕs an open relationship.  The guy is into doing movies and hustling and stuff like that.

R:  He does or you do?

G:  He does.  I did video before.

R:  Porno?

G:  Yeah.

R:  You did porno movies?

G:  Yeah.

R:  Really?  What was that like?

G:  At the time I was doing drugs.

R:  What kind of drugs did you do?

G:  I did all kinds of drugs except ice.

R:  Really?  Did you ever shoot up?

G:  Yeah.

R:  You shot up?  How old were you?

G:  When I started drugs?

R:  Yeah.

G:  Like fourteen, fifteen.

R:  Why?

G:  The bars and clubs that I went to people would spike the drinks.

R:  Are you clean now?

G:  Yeah. Nine months clean.

R:  Wow.  Was it really hard to get there?

G:  Yeah.  The thing was I wasnÕt loving myself. I was taking care of everybody else but myself.

R:  What was the last drug that you did?

G:  Methadone.

R:  When was the last time you shot up?

G:  About a year and a half ago.

R:  Did you and your lover do drugs together?

G:  In my first one we did cocaine and then in my second one we did cocaine, mescaline and all that stuff and my third one we did refer, mescaline, cocaine and speed and my last one I did like almost everything.

R:  So it got worse as you got older?

G:  When I was younger it wasnÕt that bad.  I started socially on the weekends only and then it got to the point where I would do it everyday, especially if I wasnÕt working and I was home all day.

R:  Is it expensive?

G:  Yeah.  But at times I would get it on credit and when I got money I would pay it back.

R:  Did you enjoy doing drugs?

G:  At the time, but IÕm glad IÕm off it now.

R:  How did you get off it?

G:  I went to de-tox and I go to meetings now and I speak at some places.

R:  What drove you to de-tox?

G:  I wanted to stop.

R:  Did it get really bad or did you wake up one morning and want to stop.

G:  I wanted to stop because I was killing myself.  I have the virus and IÕve had it for twelve years.

R:  YouÕve had it for twelve years?  And did you see a doctor and he told you you were killing yourself?

G:  Well I could tell I was killing myself.  I was losing weight and not doing what I had to do, like school and work.

R:  So you were still functioning even though you were getting high?

G:  I wasnÕt in the streets getting high, I was at home with my lover.

R:  So when your lover got hit by the car, did that knock you out for a long time?  Did you think you guys were going to be together for a long time?

G:  It was going well, yeah.

R:  Did it take you a long time to get over it?

G:  It took me about a year and a half.

R:  How soon did you have sex after your lover got hit by the truck?

G:  It was about two or three months.  I would only go out to bars to be around people.

R:  You didnÕt isolate yourself?

G:  Maybe one or two days out of the week I would.  Then I would just get out to the club to be around people, somebody would just come and spend some time with me.

R:  Do your parents know you are gay now?

G:  Yeah.  I never told them but they knew from the friends that I had.

R:  But you never said "IÕm gay?"

G:  No.

R:  So they didnÕt come to the funeral of your lover?

G:  Yeah they came.

R:  Did they know he was your lover?

G:  They knew he was with me so they automatically assumed that he was my lover.

R:  But you never talked about it?

G:  No.

R:  Do you have a lot of friends?

G:  Yeah, I go to NA meetings and I have friends from other support groups.  I also go to the clubs.  And IÕve met a lot people through my discussions at different places about HIV and stuff.

R:  So you talk all of the time about HIV?

G:  Yeah.

R:  Do you find a lot of people are not informed about it?

G:  Teenagers donÕt know and still donÕt want to use condoms.

R:  Do you have a lot of anonymous sex?

G:  I had, but not recently.  Sometimes I might just have sex twice a week and thatÕs it.

R:  But youÕve had a fair amount?

G:  Yeah.

R:  When did you find out you had the virus?

G:  1984.

R:  How did you find out?

G:  When I donated blood they sent me a letter saying they wanted me to come down to take the test.  I was in denial and kept it to myself for seven years.

R:  You didnÕt tell one person?

G:  Well I told my lover.

R:  What did you say?

G:  He said he probably had it, too.  We really didnÕt know who gave it to who.

R:  Did you think you got it from sex or from drugs?

G:  I think from sex.

R:  You werenÕt shooting up?

G:  At that time no.

R:  You got it in Ō84, so youÕre one of the first people so youÕve really been through it. Have you ever gotten real sick?

G:  After my lover passed away I got bacterial pneumonia and I was in the hospital for a week.  That was the only time.

R:   Only once.  Do you take any drugs for it?

G:  IÕm taking AZT and 3TC.  IÕm not on the prodies yet.

R:  What does your doctor tell you?  Are you a case study?

G:  IÕm one of the studies that Columbia University does.  They check me over ever six months.

R:  So when you found out you had the virus did you start having safe sex with people?

G:  Well I was still with my lover, so I wasnÕt having safe sex.

G:  Why would you keep having unsafe sex with your lover after you knew you had it?  Did he think he had it too so he didnÕt care or you were just in denial?

G:  I think he didnÕt care.  I was only having sex with him.

R:  So you think he had the virus?

G:  Well, he got diagnosed in 1990 that he had it.  He started getting a lot with the breathing.

R:  Like he would just run out of breath or what would happen?

G:  He was in the hospital, he started getting p.c.p. and then until he got the cancer in the lungs, thatÕs when he died.

R:  Which lover is this?

G:  My last one, the one of thirteen years.  ItÕs funny, he was so dependent on me yet when he passed away I was the one who couldnÕt get over losing him.  I still havenÕt got over him.

R:  Are your first two lovers still alive?

G:  My first lover I donÕt even want to see him, I hate him.  The second one is doing okay.

R:  So when you were with this lover of thirteen years, you guys would have unsafe sex, but when you would fool around with people outside of the relationship, would you have safe sex?

G:  Yeah.  WeÕd have safe sex.

R:  Have you had unsafe sex in the last ten years with guys other than your lover?

G:  Yeah.  IÕve fucked guys without a condom, but I wouldnÕt cum inside.

R:  So you felt it was okay to fuck them without a condom as long as you didnÕt cum inside of them?

G:  I was so upset and in that denial stage.

R:  Did you tell them that you were positive?

G:  No because I kind of sensed that they were positive.

R:  Why did you sense that they were positive?

G:  The way they looked or appeared but, of course, you canÕt really say whoÕs negative or positive.  Even now I meet guys and I have safe sex and I tell them that I am positive and theyÕre not positive and they still donÕt push me aside.

R:  They donÕt care?  Are you surprised by that?

G:  No.  Because I hear it a lot.  If you open up to the person and let them know then they respect you more and you have safer sex.

R:  What is safe sex to you?

G:  Safe sex is no sex.

R:  Safer sex.

G:  Safer sex is using a condom, protection.

R:  But what do you think about blow jobs?

G:  I use a condom.

R:  You do?

G:  Yeah.

R:  When you suck dick or when you get sucked?

G:  Either way.

R:  Really?

G:  Yeah.

R:  But most people think thatÕs safe.  You disagree with that?

G:  Before I thought it was safe, but it will be a while before they officially confirm this.  So just to be sure I use a condom.

R:  You talk a lot about the disease, what do you tell people about kissing?

G:  Kissing I donÕt mind it, but not using a condom when somebody is getting blown can be unsafe.  It has to do with the pre cum and all that stuff.

R:  You would suggest using condoms?  Do you think itÕs okay to fuck guys without condoms and pull out?

G:  Now I know itÕs a bad idea because they might have an open sore on the inside and you can infect them.

R:  Do you think you have given the disease to anyone?

G:  IÕve thought about it.

R:  Do you feel guilty?

G:  Yeah it makes me feel guilty.  ThereÕs so many people that have it and tell you they donÕt have it.

R:  People lie to you if you ask them?

G:  Yeah.

R:  Would you rather have sex with people that are positive or negative or do you care about that?

G:  It wouldnÕt matter as long as you use protection. But, IÕd rather be in a relationship with a person that is positive.

R:  Do you meet a lot of negative guys that want to have a relationship with you?

G:  Yes.

R:  Does that surprise you?

G:  No.  For now IÕd rather be with someone who is positive.  At least I can help them or they can help me.

R:  So you were in denial for seven years, what made you come out and deal with it?

G:  The main thing is that I wasnÕt loving myself, it took me forty years to love myself.  I was always helping other people and it was making me feel good, but I wasnÕt helping myself.

R:  What do you think about the virus?  Do you lose a lot of sleep worrying about the future?

G:  Not right now.  I do worry about the future, but IÕm just living day to day because if the virus doesnÕt kill me, something else will.

R:  So you donÕt live a life of fear?

G:  No, not yet.  The only thing IÕm afraid of is if I get sick who will take care of me?  I donÕt want my family to take care of me, I would rather have a lover take care of me.

R:  But you donÕt have anyone to take care of you right now?

G:  Well I have my family and friends, but IÕd rather have a lover.  I want someone who knows what IÕm going through and be there for me, just like I did for my lover.

R:  Are more of your friends negative or positive?

G:  Negative.

R:  How big a part of your life is HIV?

G:  ItÕs a big part.  I have to take care of myself in order to keep living.

R:  So you have to take medication daily?

G:  Uh huh.

R:  Do you ever not take it?

G:  Sometimes I miss a day.  But eventually I want to get into the prodies cause my TÕs are low.  Right now IÕm doing okay and I do exercise, running and walking here and there.

R:  What are your T-cells, do you know?

G:  Ninety-five.

R:  That worries you?

G:  It does, but I try not to let it bother me.

R:  You look like the picture of health.

G:  People tell me that now especially because when I was on the junk I was skinnier than I am now.

R:  So what turns you on?

G:  Somebody blowing me or me screwing somebody.

R:  So youÕre more of a top?

G:  Yeah.  I have to feel comfortable with the person to be a bottom.

R:  Have you always been a top?

G:  Yeah mostly.

R:  Is it hard to find bottoms?

G:  No, itÕs not.

R:  So how often do you have sex?

G:  Lately IÕve been having it twice a week.

R:  Where do you find it?

G:  ItÕs usually a friend that I know or somebody I meet at a bar.

R:  Do you go to sex clubs or dirty bookstores?

G:  Not all the time.  Yesterday, I was with a friend of mine and we went to see the videos down on Christopher Street.  I went with this friend cause he wanted to see somebody.  So, I followed him in there and we were looking but later I said IÕll wait for you outside. I went to a sex club last month.

R:  Did you like it?

G:  Yeah.  I havenÕt been there since like the Ō80s.

R:  Do you have a problem finding men?

G:  No.

R:  Never?  If you want sex you can find it right away?

G:  The last time I was there I came seven times.

R:  Where?

G:  When I went to the sex club I came seven times.

R:  You came seven times?  You can cum seven times in one night?

G:  Yeah, my testosterone level is very high.

R:  Do you always cum a lot when youÕre having sex?

G:  When I was younger I used to cum a lot and now my testosterone level is high and my doctor considers me a sex addict.

R:  He told you that?

G:  My level is 1700 and the average highest is 1000, add on my the age factor and there you go:  sex addict.  My problem is I cum too fast, like after ten, fifteen minutes.

R:  But then you could cum again fifteen minutes later?

G:  I can.

R:  Do you cum more or less the second time?  Like that night of seven times, did you cum less and less each time?

G:  It varied.  The beginning will be more, then less, then more, depending on what IÕm putting through my system like water or juice.

R:  Tell me about the relationship between drugs and sex.

G:  Well with me drugs never affected the sex, I could still cum.  I know some people that came but wouldnÕt ejaculate when theyÕre using drugs.

R:  Was the sex was better on drugs?

G:  Yeah.  I think the best was on crack cocaine.

R:  Really?  You were on crack cocaine and it was the best sex you ever had?

G:  Yes, on crack cocaine.

R:  Was it the crack or was it the guy you were with?

G:  I think it was the crack.

R:  Why do you think that?

G:  It just give you a rush.  I mean some people canÕt do it like that but for me it worked fine.

R:  Was it only one time of sex on crack?

G:  It was a lot of times.

R:  So every time you had crack the sex was really good?

G:  Yeah.

R:  WhatÕs sex on crack like?

G:  ItÕs just like using poppers.  ItÕs a rush.

R:  It makes you horny?

G:  Yeah.

R:  Would you smoke crack while you were having sex?

G:  IÕd take a hit while somebody would be sucking my dick, or IÕd be screwing someone and theyÕd take a hit.

R:  Have guys youÕre having sex with ever been freaked out by the drugs or do you tell them that you want to do crack while youÕre fucking them?

G:  Well some want to use it and some get paranoid.

R:  Are you drawn to guys that do drugs?

G:  I think it has to do with the environment youÕre in.

R:  Do you meet guys and say, "Do you like to do crack?"  Or what do you say?

G:  It happens like that sometimes.

R:  Is that what you actually say?

G:  It never happened to me, but I know some people that have the drugs and are looking for someone to have sex to share the drugs with.  Sometimes the person you meet will only go with you because you have the drugs.

R:  Would you have sex with someone that was doing drugs now?

G:  Yeah, I would.

R:  You would?  So if a guy was sucking you off or fucking you and he wanted to take a hit of a crack pipe you wouldnÕt say anything?

G:  I havenÕt got to that point yet.  I been with a few guys that smoke refer (which wasnÕt my drug of choice) and IÕve been with guys with alcohol.  There was this one guy that wanted to go home with me but he wanted to do crack cocaine and I told him no cause that was my drug of choice.

R:  Meaning you wouldÕve gone back to it?

G:  Yeah, I told him you could come to my house but you cannot smoke the pipe.

R:  What did he say?

G:  He came over but he didnÕt do any crack.  When I know he wants to hang out and do crack I say "no" and IÕll see him another day.  So he goes with someone that will let him do the crack in their house.

R:   Do you feel like you know that the drugs are over for you or do you feel like any day you could go back to it?

G:  It all depends on how stressed or depressed I get.  LetÕs say I was in a relationship with someone and I break up with the person and IÕm feeling down and out, I might go back to the drugs.  But, before that happens there are people I can call to let them know what IÕm going through and they will help me to feel better.

R:  Do you feel lonely in general?

G:  Sometimes.

R:  Do you need to be around people all the time?

G:  Well lately IÕve been spending time by myself.

R:  Why is that?

G:  I just stay home and go through my magazines or my books, straighten something out or fix something in the house.  I just moved to a bigger apartment and I have someone living with me temporarily but heÕs getting on my nerves.   IÕm saying to myself, I lived with people but they were lovers not roommates.

R:  Have you guys had sex?

G:  In the beginning we did.  I was in love with somebody else and I told him, "I canÕt get into a relationship with you cause IÕm in love with somebody else."  Maybe I still am.

R:  He still wants to have sex with you?

G:  No. We kiss and hug, but not sex.

R:  But you did have sex at one point?

G:  At one point, yeah.

R:  And when he had sex with you, he knew you were positive?

G:  Yeah, I told him.

R:  Is he negative?

G:  Yeah.

R:  But he didnÕt care?

G:  No.

R:  Are you surprised that there are so many guys who are negative and want to have sex with you?  I mean if you were negative would you want to have sex with somebody positive?

G:  Yeah, I think I would.

R:  You would?

G:  Yeah.

R:  So it does not really surprise you?

G:  No.  There are a lot of people, however, who are negative and wonÕt have sex with someone whoÕs positive.

R:  Does that attitude bother you?

G:  Sometimes.  They donÕt know the person, so how can they say that?

R:  What are some bad stereotypes that people think about others who are HIV positive that you think are unfair?

G:  TheyÕre still having unsafe sex with everybody.

R:  Do you think thereÕs a big divide between the positive and the negative community? You said most of your friends are negative, but are you more comfortable around people that are positive?

G:  No, itÕs equally comfortable.

R:  Do you find a lot of positive people only want to have sex with positive people?

G:  No, thereÕs some that want to have it with negative.

R:  But you canÕt make any generalizations?

G:  No, even the ones that are positive, but donÕt say it, still fool around with negative people.

R:  Do you think a lot of people lie?

G:  Uh huh, thereÕs a lot that donÕt want to let people know theyÕre positive.

R:  Have you ever lied?

G:  About me being positive, no.

R:  YouÕve never lied to a sex partner?

G:  No, especially now with that law they have where the negative person can sue.  If youÕre positive and you donÕt let the other person know, they can sue.

R:  Do you always bring it up or do you wait for them to ask?

G:  When we start talking I let them know.

R:  You say right away, "IÕm positive."

G:  To get it out of the way.

R:  Do people change when you tell them that youÕre positive?

G:  It changes a little.  They like step off a little bit.

R:  Gay men?

G:  And straight men.  Bi sexual men, too.

R:  Do you fool around with a lot of bi sexual and straight men?

G:  Not as often as I used to, but once in a while.

R:  You used to fool around with straight men, where would you find them?

G:  Either the train or the bus or just walking.

R:  Do you have a big dick?

G:  Yeah.

R:  Do you think itÕs an attraction to a lot of men?

G:  To some.  Sometimes it bothers me when they say my dick is why they are attracted to me or why they want to be with me.

R:  Do you think that youÕre attractive?

G:  Yeah, but then my age kicks up and it bothers me.

R:  But you look so young.  When you look in the mirror do you see an old person or a young person?

G:  Young.

R:  What do you think it means to be forty?  Did you always have an idea like when IÕm forty IÕll be really old?

G:  I didnÕt think I was gonna see forty.

R:  Do you think youÕll see fifty?

G:  WeÕll see what happens.  If I take care of myself better then maybe.

R:  Do you think youÕll see sixty?

G:  Well IÕll try for fifty first.

R:  So you live moment to moment?

G:  Yeah.

R:  What do you want from the future?

G:  To find a cure to get this virus out of me so that I can fully enjoy life.

R:  Do you feel confident they will?

G:  Oh, yes, eventually they will.

R:  LetÕs talk about your life growing up in America as a Hispanic male and being a part of the gay community.  Do you experience a lot of racism?

G:  No. I always wanted to do what I wanted to do.

R:  You donÕt feel like society has held you back in some way?

G:  No.

R:  Do you feel like you live in a racist society?

G:  Racism exists, but it never affected me that much.

R:  Do you think the gay community is racist?  Do you find a lot of men donÕt want a black man or a dark man or do you find youÕre more popular because of it?

G:  I donÕt know to be honest.

R:  Do you fool around with a lot of guys that are white or mostly dark men?

G:  White and Hispanics and people from different countries.

R:  What kind of men attract you?

G:  Attractive.

R:  What does that mean to you?

G:  I donÕt know something in them has to stand out.

R:  Like what?

G:  Could be their eyebrows or their lips or their features.

R:  YouÕre not looking for one type of person?

G:  No.

R:  Would you rather be with men of color or white men?

G:  White men.

R:  Do you know why?

G:  I donÕt know.  I had sex with black men and they just want to cum right away and thatÕs it.  They just want to screw you.

R:  What about Hispanic men?

G:  Hispanics want to make love.

R:  Would you rather make love or have sex?

G:  IÕd rather make love.

R:  What is the difference between making love and having sex?

G:  Sex is when once a personÕs satisfied they leave.  Making love is more fulfilling.

R:  What do you think about your sex life?

G:  ItÕs great, the only thing is when I come too fast.

R:  But youÕd rather make love than have sex.  But if you canÕt find someone who wants to make love, youÕll have sex?

G:  I love sex.

R:  Do you do a lot of kissing and affection and cuddling?  Do you find a lot of guys donÕt want to do that or do a lot of guys want to be held?

G:  There are some that donÕt want to open up like that.

R:  Are a lot of men afraid of opening up?

G:  A few.

R:  Are there certain guys you want to have sex with and some you want to make love to?

G:  I prefer to make love.

R:  No matter the guy?

G:  There are some men that I just have sex and thatÕs it.

R:  But are there certain guys that you look at and go, "IÕd like to just have sex with him, but IÕd like to make love to him."

G:  It depends on the person.

R:  Do you meet a lot of guys that you think are really hot and sexy, but you know you could never be in a relationship with them?

G:  There are some that are attractive, but when I start talking to them itÕs like they turn you off.

R:  How important are brains to you?

G:  Important.  IÕd rather be with someone that I can spend time with and do things with.

R:  Do you like older guys or younger guys?

G:  When I was younger I was meeting older guys now that IÕm older IÕm meeting younger guys.

R:  Are you meeting younger guys or are you being pursued by younger guys?

G:  I am meeting younger guys and being pursued.

R:  You feel like youÕre being pursued by younger guys!  Why do you think that is?

G:  I donÕt know.

R:  Do you feel like when you were younger you were pursued by older men or you pursued older men?

G:  I was pursued by older men.

R:  So basically what youÕre telling me is that your whole life youÕve been pursued.  How do you meet men?

G:  In a club, on the train, wherever.  Like last night I met this guy down in the village and heÕs bi sexual.  He looked at me, then I looked at him, when I got into the train I sat next to him, he started talking and he said, "You want my phone number?"  Just like that.

R:  And did you get it?

G:  Yeah, he gave me his beeper number.

R:  But you didnÕt go home with him?

G:  No.

R:  Was he White or was he Spanish?

G:  He was Spanish, Dominican.  Cute, young like thirty-something.

R:  Do you find it interesting that when you were young you were with older guys and now that you are older you are with younger guys?

G:  I find it weird, but it just happened like that.

R:  Do you like being with younger guys or would you rather be with older guys?

G:  It doesnÕt matter to me.  What matters is if they have something you can communicate with them about and if they have a good heart.

R:  Would you say youÕre not obsessed with looks?

G:  A little bit.

R:  Would you have sex with someone you considered ugly, but they had a heart that you were really attracted to?

G:  I might, I never have, but I might.

R:  So you wouldnÕt have sex with somebody you thought had an awful personality?

G:  Well it depends how IÕm feeling that day.

R:  So if someoneÕs personality turned you off but you were really horny, you would have sex with them?

G:  Maybe.

R:  What is your criteria to have sex?  Is it like, "IÕm horny, I have to have sex."

G:  Well, yeah, IÕm horny and I want to have sex.

R:  What is the raunchiest thing youÕve ever done?

G:  I think fist fucking somebody.

R;  You used to fist fuck somebody?

G:  Yeah, I used to fist fuck my lover, the last one.

R:  All the time?

G:  Not all the time, but some of the time.

R:  How far up would you go?

G:  Like halfway.

R:  Halfway up your arm.  Would you wear a glove or not?

G:  At that time, no.

R:  What did you use to get up there, like Crisco oil or lube?

G:  A lubricant.

R:  Was he really loose?

G:  Yeah.

R:  Was he loose when you met him or did he become loose because you were fist fucking?

G:  He wasnÕt loose when I met him.

R:  Was it a turn for you or him or both?

G:  For both.

R:  It was a turn on for you?

G:  We used to have great sex.

R:  Always?

G:  Well not always.

R:  But most of the time.  You were together for thirteen years and to have great sex over a thirteen year period is pretty amazing donÕt you think?

G:  And the thing is like when we had orgies, heÕd get upset cause thereÕs always that one that likes it more.

R:  Do you think thatÕs why you stayed together because the sex was so good or was it the emotional bond?

G:  The emotions because he was dependent on me.

R:  Do you meet guys that tend to need you more than you need them?

G:  Yeah.  I can find people to depend on, but maybe I donÕt want to be dependent on somebody else.

R:  Now what other things have you gotten into?  S&M or piss or shit?

G:  I pissed on guys.

R:  You piss on guys a lot or you have?

G:  Well in my younger days I used to go to the bath houses before they closed down.

R:  Did it turn you on pissing on guys or did you do it for them?

G:  At the time it was something different to do.  Is wasnÕt really a turn on, I just did it.

R:  Have you ever shit on anyone?

G:  No.

R:  Would you?

G:  I donÕt know.  I know people that have done it but I never did it.

R:  Have people asked you to do it?

G:  Yeah.

R:  What did you tell them?

G:  I said no.

R:  YouÕre not into that?

G:  Just fist fucking or maybe having two penisÕ in somebodyÕs butt.

R:  YouÕve done that?

G:  Yeah.

R:  Was that hot?

G:  It was all right, again just something different.

R:  But your favorite thing is to have someone give you a blowjob?

G:  Yeah.

R:  And they blow you with a condom on?

G:  Yeah.

R:  Do you enjoy getting blowjobs with condoms on or do you feel like itÕs different?

G:  ItÕs different.  ItÕs not as good with a condom.  You got that rubber in the way.

R:  Do you ever have guys suck you without a condom?  Even if they say, "I donÕt care if youÕre positive I want to suck your dick without a condom?"

G:  I let them know and if they donÕt want it I take it off.  But usually when that happens we just jack off instead of sucking anybody off.

R:  Have you been with really old guys?

G:  A few.

R:  Did you like it?

G:  No, I wouldnÕt get an erection.

R:  What is your age limit?

G:  Maybe fifty.

R:  So what will you do when you hit fifty-five?

G:  I donÕt know probably start paying for it.

R:  Have you ever paid for it before?

G:  No.

R:  Would you pay for it?

G:  Not now.

R:  But you would if you had to?

G:  I donÕt know I havenÕt got to that place yet.

R:  Have you been paid for sex?

G:  Yeah.  Friends of mine would invite me over and they would want an older guy to jerk off.

R:  How much did you get paid?

G:  Like three hundred.

R:  Really?  How did you feel after you got paid?

G:  I felt excited because I had the money and I was broke at the time.  It bothered me a little bit, but not that much.

R:  What was your worst sexual experience?

G:  I donÕt know.  Well there was one time when I was screwing this guy and he had soft diarrhea.  It was my lover, myself and this other guy.  I was getting high at the time and he had soft diarrhea.

R:  And it came out?

G:  Yeah.

R:  What did you do?

G:  I had to take a bath.

R:  You were disgusted?

G:  Yeah.

R:  That was your worst?

G:  Yeah.

R:  What was your best, being on crack?

G:  Yeah.  I used to have good sex on crack.

R:  Where was the weirdest place you had sex?

G:  On the roof of a building.

R:  You said before you can tell when you meet someone if they are positive or not.  Do you believe that you can all the time or just half of the time?

G:  Half of the time.

R:  But do you meet guys that you think are positive and theyÕre not, or you think theyÕre negative and theyÕre not?

G:  Maybe like half of the time.

R:  Do you think a lot people can tell if someone is positive or not?

G:  People assume a lot.

R:  Do your parents know youÕre positive?

G:  Yeah.  Two years ago I told my father.  He kept asking me because he saw my lover who was living in my motherÕs house.  Then we moved and he passed away a few months later.  So he was sick and my mother would ask me and I would tell her no.

R:  You would tell her no and she would not believe you?

G:  They say your mother always knows.  She knew I was getting sick a lot, I would get upper respiratory infections a lot.

R:  Would they knock you out for a long time?

G:  No.

R:  You would just walk around with these infections?

G:  I would take anti-biotics and I was always at the doctor.

R:  Now your mother was taking care of your lover, she knew he was HIV positive when she was taking care of him?

G:  Yeah.

R:  Did it freak her out?

G:  No, it didnÕt.

R:  She was a very strong woman?

G:  Yeah.

R:  And your dad was very strong, too?

G:  Yeah.  They didnÕt treat him any differently.

R:  YouÕre mom and dad are very responsible people?

G:  Yeah.

R:  TheyÕre very responsible and hard working and together, their lives are kind of together?

G:  Yeah.

R:  Like your mother doesnÕt do crack, youÕre dad doesnÕt do drugs?

G:  My father drinks.

R:  He drinks?  ThatÕs the only thing that he does?

G:  My mother and father have been together forty-three years.  They sleep in separate rooms, but theyÕre still together.

R:  But theyÕre very responsible and theyÕre very loving?

G:  Yeah.

R:  So you didnÕt tell them?  You kept telling them no and they just kept asking you?

G:  After my lover died, I ran into my father in the street and he kept asking me if I was sick, and finally I said yes.  And he started crying.

R:  He started crying in the street?

G:  Yeah.  I just told him and then I walked away.  And when I got to the house we talked more and started crying.

R:  Did your mom start crying?

G:  I had already told my mother.

R:  And what did she say?

G:  She didnÕt say anything besides take care of yourself.  She sees IÕm doing good now, but if I start to get sick she will take care of me.

R:  So your dad cried but your mom did not?

G:  Maybe she cried for one second.

R:  Yeah, but she didnÕt cry in front of you.  But your dad cried in front of you.  Did your dad cry in front of you when you were growing up?

G:  No, he said men donÕt cry.  We donÕt communicate that much.

R:  You donÕt?

G:  I just say hi and bye and go because he has two different personalities.  When heÕs sober heÕs different and when heÕs high heÕs different.  IÕd rather deal with you when you have one personality.

R:  How often is he sober?

G:  HeÕs cut down a lot.  He drinks maybe two or three times a week.

R:  When he drinks he always gets drunk?

G:  No, not drunk, cause he has control.  HeÕs an old timer.

R:  Is he abusive to your mother?

G:  He was in the past.

R:  He used to beat her?

G:  They used to fight but we would jump in and throw him out.

R:  Do you have brothers and sisters?

G:  I have one brother and three sisters.

R:  Do they all know youÕre gay and positive?

G:  Yeah.

R:  How do they deal with you?

G:  TheyÕre there for me.

R:  Do any of your family members reject you because youÕre gay?

G:  No.

R:  What about grandparents or uncles or...?

G:  They might, but it doesnÕt bother me.

R:  Are you close to your brothers and sisters?

G:  WeÕre very close.

R:  Did your family know about your drug use?

G:  It took them a while to know because I never did it in front of them.  They would ask me about it.  And one time I was owing rent and my lover called my mother and told her I was getting high.  My father came up to the house to see what was happening, but it got straightened up.

R:  Where do your parents live now?

G:  In Spanish Harlem.

R:  Do you see them a lot?

G:  I was with my mother earlier.  She had to go food shopping.  She has only my father and her living in the house so I went with her.

R:  Did the fact that youÕre positive come up?

G:  No, it never does.

R:  It never does?  She doesnÕt say, "HowÕs your health?"

G:  She sees that IÕm doing okay.

R:  She doesnÕt ask you about it?

G:  No, but if I was going to the hospital a lot and sick, then she would ask.

R:  So itÕs not really a big issue?

G:  No.

R:  So what will you do tonight?  What is a typical Saturday night for you?

G:  Tonight, I think IÕll probably just go to a meeting because itÕs the anniversary.

R:  Today is your anniversary?

G:  ItÕs not my anniversary, itÕs some friends.  IÕll be celebrating my year in February.

R:  Do you think you are free of the drugs?

G:  No.  I mean I havenÕt done anything, but you never know.

R:  You donÕt feel like youÕre home free and in the clear?

G:  There are days that I go through urges but I call somebody and I speak to them about how I feel.

R:  Do you go to gay meetings or straight meetings?

G:  I go to both, but I feel more comfortable at the gay meetings.

R:  Do you feel like youÕre doing something really good with your life?  Like your lifeÕs really coming together and youÕre really moving to someplace good?  Now all you need is a boyfriend.

G:  I am seeing somebody now.  HeÕs young, twenty seven.  He just found out that he has the virus.

R:  He just found out?

G:  About a year ago.

R:  Does he know how he got it?

G:  From sex.

R:  They say that men of color are more at risk than white gay men and the concern is really in the minority groups.

G:  And the teenagers.

R:  And the teenagers.  Why do you think that is?

G:  I think white people are more educated about it.

R:  Do you feel a lot of blacks and Hispanics donÕt know about safe sex or they just choose to ignore?

G:  Some choose to ignore.

R:  Do you think they choose to ignore more than gay white men choose to ignore?

G:  They probably donÕt care because they have no support so theyÕd rather do what they want to do.

R:  Do you feel gay white men are more privileged than gay black men?

G:  I know thereÕs a lot of discrimination.  But for me, anybody can do what they want to do.  You just have to have the drive to do it.  But some people donÕt care, maybe because of their upbringing or whatever.  But for the white men now, I think they are more educated.  So I guess we, the people of color, are going through it now to get to where the white people are.

R:  Do you feel like thereÕs a lot of catching up to do still?

G:  Yeah, but everybody has to go through the process their own way.

R:  You seem like you have a lot of peace in your life right now.

G:  Well I go through my ups and downs.

R:  YouÕre nine months sober.  Is that the longest stretch youÕve ever not had drugs in your life since you originally started?

G:  Yeah.

R:  So how is your life different without the drugs?

G:  I can do a lot more than I could before.  When I was on the drugs, even though I was working and going to school, I would close up more, I would just stay home and get high, then get up and go again.

R:  So youÕre more active and youÕre getting more things done?

G:  Even though I spend time with myself at home, people come over.  But what bothers me is IÕm trying to help somebody and they donÕt pick up on what youÕre trying to tell them.  But I have to understand that they have to go through whatever theyÕre going through their own way.  It bothers me but I have to let that go.  IÕm finally starting to love myself.

R:  YouÕre a little charmer, arenÕt you?  You canÕt lose with a name like Gabriel.

G:  That was my loverÕs name, too.

R:  He had the same name?  Was that an accident, or you guys took the same name?

G:  No, we just happened to have the same name.

R:  Two Gabriels.

G:  He would have been thirty-six years, he died when he was thirty-three.

R:  He had the virus the same time you did?

G:  I donÕt know it could have been longer or shorter.

R:  Are you surprised youÕve made it thirteen years?

G:  Yeah.  I guess I have God on my side.

R:  Do you believe in God?

G:  Yeah.

R:  Do you believe you go somewhere when you die?

G:  I know IÕm going to heaven because this is hell for me.

R:  What do you hate about the world?

G:  That there are people starving here in the United States and they are sending food other places.  The United States is always helping everybody else but theyÕre not helping the people that are here.

R:  Do you like Bill Clinton?

G:  I didnÕt want to vote for the other guy.

R:  Did you vote?

G:  Yeah, I voted.

R:  Do you think weÕre making progress as a gay community?

G:  A little bit.  A lot of politicians and judges still have the old mentality.

R:  ItÕs a slow process.

G:  ItÕll be a while.

R:  Do you think the world is a bad place or a good place.  You said it was hell.

G:  Maybe hell in the good way.  For me itÕs okay.

R:  Have you learned anything today talking about yourself?

G:  Yeah, I heard myself saying things that I havenÕt spoken about for awhile.

R:  Like what?

G:  My relationships and how I am.  IÕm proud of myself because at least IÕm not heading downwards, IÕm heading upwards.

R:  Are you really aware of how great your life is going?  I think itÕs a great thing that youÕve been off drugs for nine months.

G:  I still have other addictions.

R:  But to not be doing drugs every day is a really great thing.  I hope you really realize how great it is that youÕve put your life together.

G:  ItÕs family and friends.

R:  YouÕre lucky because you have so much love in your life.  You seem very happy and youÕre surrounded by people who love you and you always have lovers.

G:  I was in a relationship like maybe two or three months back.  I met this guy in the hospital and his lover was there and we clicked.  I even had sex with him that same day.

R:  Where?

G:  In the hospital.

R:  Where in the hospital?

G:  In one of the shower rooms in the hospital.

R:  What did you guys do?

G:  He sucked me off.  But his lover, my friend, doesnÕt like me now because I was in the way.

R:  But you were really into him?

G:  Yeah.

R:  Did you tell him you were positive that day at the hospital when you met him?

G:  Yeah, he was positive too.

R:  He told you that right away?

G:  Yeah.  He was in the HIV ward of the hospital.

R:  So you snuck up to the shower room and had sex?

G:   In the shower room, yeah.  I was giving him a bath because he hadnÕt had one that day.

SCENE: JOE-23 PAGES

Texan-effiminate-sweet-innocent acting but not really too innocent-very sexual but slow to come out

J:  I  knew  all of my life that I was gay, but at twenty-two I had my first real experience man to man.  An experience I consider real, not the things you have when youÕre twelve and you look at each other and have a jack off contest or something like that.

R:  Did you initiate the jack off contests when you were little?

J:  No, I was always to scared to initiate.  Lord knows I wanted to, but I didnÕt.  Actually, I was usually the last to enter because I always thought I was being tricked into falling for, "look at Joe, heÕs a faggot."  IÕd end up doing it, but I would be one of the last to get in and do it or IÕd act like I didnÕt like it.  Now, of course, IÕm the gay one and they are all happily married to women.

R:  Do they know youÕre gay?

J:  Yeah.  I was one of those that when I finally decided to explore it, I kicked the door wide open.  In a monthÕs time I went from not knowing what to do about this to sitting in my motherÕs bedroom telling her IÕm sexual with men.

R:  And how old were you?

J:  I was twenty-two, a junior in college.

R:  Now did you parade as a heterosexual for part of your life?

J:  I dated girls all through high school and college until I was a junior.  I wouldnÕt say that I was a lady killer, but I was going out and having sex with women.

R:  Did you enjoy it?

J:  Yeah.  It wasnÕt a problem because IÕm from a small town and there is no way I would be able to do anything about my homosexuality.  I thought eventually I would get over it.

R:  Were you afraid of growing up gay your whole life?

J:  Oh yeah, it was a huge fear because IÕm from a conservative family.  The town IÕm from is very conservative, so I mean the minute anyone knew the whole town knew.

R:  Did you know that there were other gay men out there?

J:  I knew Wilder and Godfrey in college, especially being around the theater, so I knew that there were gays out there.  But again being in Texas and being in west Texas it was harder to find.  IÕm sure there was some sort of fraternity underground and IÕm sure the football players were doing each other.  But if you werenÕt a part of  that then you had to rely on the bar scene.

R:  So what  gave you the courage to come out?

J:  ItÕs a funny story actually.  My best friend since I was really young was coming to visit me.  This is a guy I have always been in love with, of course, heÕs married with two kids, but anyway I remember the very first day I saw this boy in seventh grade.  My family had moved to a new town and I see this boy the first day of school and it was like, "IÕm in love with this guy."  So anyway, he was coming to visit me at college and I was going to get my hair cut.

The person that usually cuts my hair wasnÕt there so the owner of the shop was going to cut it for me.  The owner is just a super person, heÕs no holds barred and blunt to the core.  So heÕs cutting my hair and he says what are you doing here and I say, "I have a friend coming to visit."  WeÕre talking and he finds out I live with a girl and he asks, "So you sleep with her?"  And I said, "No."  He said, "You never wanted to?"  And I said, "WeÕre just friends."  He says, "What about this guy thatÕs coming over?  Do you ever sleep with him?"  I was just shocked and said, "No."  Then he asked if I had ever slept with a guy and I was like, "No."  He goes, "Do you think these two would go for a three way?"  Talking about my roommate and my best friend and I said, "No."  He goes, "So, do you swing both ways?"  And I didnÕt know what to say I just couldnÕt believe I was having this conversation, so I just said, "It depends."  So he goes, "I donÕt know why youÕve never been with a guy, I know tons of guys in college that are gay and I cut their hair, I could set you up with somone."  I said, "No, no, no, IÕm not even ready to tell myself that IÕm gay let alone meet someone else and admit it."  HeÕs like, "If you ever want to meet someone call me here and you can come in to the salon, act like youÕre going to buy something and theyÕll be here waiting to get their hair cut and you can see them and you can let me know if you want to meet them."  I said, "Okay, fine whatever.  But please right now I just donÕt think thatÕs possible."

R:  Is this a salon or a bordello?

J:  Good question.  After I got to know this guy I realized that it was probably more of a bordello, at least his cubicle.  The damn things that went on in there, believe me.  But anyway, so the weekend with my best friend passed and I was just like, "Oh God."  He brings out all these feelings in me and I decided that I had to find out more about this.  So I called the hairdresser back and said, "Okay I want to meet someone."  He told me to come up that afternoon and heÕd introduce me to someone.

R:  Oh my God!

J:  So he knew this guy that was a waiter, Mark.  I didnÕt want to meet someone on the terms of "letÕs get together."  I wanted to meet someone who was gay and say, "I might be gay, can we sit down and talk about it?"   So thatÕs sort of what that was and MarkÕs like, "Sure, you know, go out with us sometime."  But, I was scared to death of going out to the gay bars.  He was way ahead of me.  Not only was he older than me by about twenty-five years, but he was way ahead of the game.  So to him sitting down and talking was a waste of time.  Jump in the water was basically what he was saying.  And thatÕs not what I wanted.

So then a week later, the hairdresser calls me up and says, "A friend of mine was here and I told him I knew someone that was just coming out and did he want to meet him?"  And the guy says, "Sure, IÕll meet him.  Give him my number, we can have a beer or something like that."  So after much fretting I called this guy and he asked if I wanted to come over for a few drinks.  I was so nervous I took a bottle of vodka because I was afraid there wouldnÕt be enough alcohol at his place to keep me calm.  So he drank beer and I drank vodka, actually three quarters of a fifth of vodka meaning the bottle was gone and so was I.  After much talking, we were kissing and IÕm like, "Oh my God, I canÕt believe I am kissing a guy."  And then his shirt is off and IÕm like, "Oh my God, I canÕt believe IÕm touching a guyÕs chest and IÕm kissing this guy."  One thing led to another and I ended up in his bedroom.  I actually let him try to do me that night.  It didnÕt work, though, it was way too painful.

R:  You mean fuck you?

J:  Yeah.  It was way too painful.  But it was one of those things where I needed to know what it was all about and I needed to try everything.

R:  Did you try to fuck him?

J:  No, he didnÕt want that.  And I was like, "Okay, whatever."

R:  Did he suck your dick?

J:  Uh huh.

R:  And you sucked his dick?

J:  Yeah.

R:  Was it big?

J:  He was okay, it wasnÕt that big.  When I look back the experience was pretty disappointing actually.  But at the time, it was my first real experience.  It was exciting in the moment but I look back and think, "Gee, why did I even try to give it up?"

R:  Was it the type of guy you would normally be attracted to?

J:  Some parts were attractive.  He was dark and very masculine, but a weird personality. We see each other on and off.   Actually, it turns out that heÕs the older brother of a guy I was in school with who was totally straight and who I was totally attracted.  We were in class together and then, "Oh my God.  I slept with your older brother."

R:  How did you feel the next day after you woke up?

J:  I donÕt know.  I remember going home that night and calling the only person that knew I was gay and telling her.

R:  What did you say?

J:  I was excited, "IÕve done it."  The newness wore off in a way but it sort of just lit the fire.  Like I said one weekend this guy comes into town, I get my haircut, the next weekend IÕm in bed with someone, the following weekend, I have to go home for a wedding and I come out to my mother.

R:  What did she say when you told her?

J:  Well it was sort of weird.  The only person that knew I was gay was a lesbian and we sort of came out to each other.  Anyway,  we had gone out one night and she says, "Tonight I think IÕm going to tell my parents. I just canÕt take it anymore."  Inside I  was like, "Oh my God, no, you canÕt."  But I told her, "If you do and it goes bad and you need a place to stay, call me and come over."  So when I got home my mom happened to be awake and we started talking.  By the way, My mom and I are like best friends.  Anyway, I was going up stairs and I told her, "If the phone rings, IÕll get it.  Cause it will probably be Tasie.  SheÕs just having some problems."  And she says, "Guy trouble?"  And I said, "No, more like girl trouble.  And sheÕs thinking about telling her parents sheÕs a lesbian."  My mom said, "Well IÕve always wondered that about Tasie."  And I said, "Oh really?  I think there are probably a lot of parents that wonder that about my preference."  And she goes, "Well are you?"  And I said, "Well, maybe."  And she goes, "What does that mean?  Does that mean that you think youÕre bi or that you are?"  I said, "Let me just put it this way, IÕm just as much attracted to guys as I am to girls."

R:  It was a big fat lie, right?

J:  Pretty much yeah.  I was more attracted to guys than girls, but at the time I still had an attraction to girls.

R:  Did you masturbate thinking about women?

J:  Sometimes.  You have little flashes of images go through your head and sometimes it was women.  A lot of times it was guys.Most of the time it was my best friend.  But there were times, even after I knew I was totally gay, that women would flash into my mind.   There are lots of flashing images, but itÕs mostly men.

R:  So you told your mother you were attracted to both men and women.

J:  Right and she said, "Well, what are you going to do about this?"  I was like, "Wow, youÕre so calm.  I thought IÕd be pulling you off the ceiling."  She said, "No, if you want to know the truth, I sort of figured it and knew that you would tell me when you were ready.  So what are you going to do?"  And I was like, "Well I donÕt know.  I donÕt know what to do."

R:  Did you have any idea of how your life would be as a gay man?

J:  I had ideas, stereotypical ideas.  That was part my fear of coming out, I didnÕt want to get my ass kicked.  I wanted to be able to date someone and go out.  I remember the first time I was with someone at Christmas time.  I remember looking at our two names on the stockings and just crying because I never thought I would sit in my house and see my name and another guyÕs name together.

R:  When you came out, did you want a traditional relationship or did you want anonymous sex?

J:   I believed, and I use the past tense because IÕve become a little bitter along the way, but I believed that you could meet someone that felt the same way you did and that you could get together.  I wasnÕt looking to get married right away, but I didnÕt want only one night stands.  I didnÕt want my only interaction with men to be sexual.  I wanted to share everything with somebody, not just my body.

R:  So when you were coming out at twenty-two it was not just about sex?

J:  There was excitement with the sex in touching a guy for the first time and having some guy touch me.  But  even when it was great, it wasnÕt sustaining.  ItÕs still not sustaining.

R:  So youÕre not satisfied with one night stands?

J:  No, although Lord knows I have my share.  I always put guys into two categorieJ:  those you want to fuck and those you want to date.

R:  Do you meet guys more often that you want to date or fuck?

J:  I meet more guys that I want to fuck.  But I have met a lot of guys that I wanted to date, though it doesnÕt always work both ways.  I may be someone who they just want to fuck.

R:  Have you dated a lot?

J:  The longest relationship IÕve had, which was with the Christmas boy, lasted a year and a half.  It turned out to be a very complicated relationship and breakup.  He was nineteen and I was twenty-three.  He was party, party, party and I was wanting more stability.  I liked to have a good time but thereÕs more besides letÕs go out to the clubs, get some alcohol, have everyone to the house and play drinking games until three in the morning or till weÕre all too trashed and do it all again tomorrow.  And too, he had the wandering eye.

R:  So the relationship was supposed to be monogamous but he wasnÕt really into that?

J:  It worked great for about seven months.

R:  Monogamy?

J:  Everything.  Then after seven months, he stayed wild and I became the stickler.

R:  Do you miss him?

J:  No, I look back and I think, "What was I thinking?"   Actually I know what I was thinking, "heÕs gorgeous."

R:  Do you miss the sex with him?

J:  Sometimes I wish I could have sex like that because it was just the best.  There was an intimacy there.  When you find somebody that kisses good, itÕs just like, "Whoa!"  And the sex was the same kind of thing.  We were into it together.  On the patio, in the living room,  on the kitchen table, tied to the TV stand with a cat leash, whatever.  It was fun and it worked.

R:  You would tie each other to a TV stand with a cat leash?

J:  We were having sex one night and he blind folded me and tied my hands to the TV set.  He was going to do different things to me like first he shaved me.

R:  Shaved what?

J:  My balls, my dick, my ass, whatever.

R:  Had you ever been shaved before?

J:  Just with him, one time we shaved each other completely and it was the worst. Everything down there was just bare.  It hurt so bad when it grew back, it drove us both so crazy, but balls and things are okay.  So back to the TV stand, after the shaving, we got high and we got the whipped cream and the ice, then a candle.  Then he actually takes an Edge can of shaving cream and tries to shove it up my ass.  I was like, "What the fuck are you doing?"  He was like, "Nothing." So anyway after him doing that for a while and not even coming close, I was just like, "Ow!  Take this off me."  So he took it off, shows me what he was trying to do and, of course, heÕs laughing.

R:  WhatÕs the attraction of shaving?

J:  I donÕt think there was any attraction in shaving.  I shave because I think it looks better.  I meet guys that are totally into the fact that I have hair on my chest, itÕs that whole idea of you want what you donÕt have.  But really itÕs just something to do.

R:  So was the best sex you ever had was with this guy?

J:  Yeah, pretty close.  IÕd rank him in the top three.  It was always great, until the end when the sex became connected with too many knock down, drag out fights.

R:  What would you fight about?

J:  His cheating or my jealousy.

R:  So youÕre very jealous?

J:  I became that way with him.  We had an open and honest relationship and the first time he cheated, he told me and I was just like okay.  But after it continued to happen, it made me not trust him.  By in the end of the relationship, I was really fucked up.  There was a time after we broke up that I couldnÕt even get it up with guys.

R:  And this guy was really gorgeous?

J:  He was really gorgeous.

R:  Do you see yourself as attractive?

J:  Not like him.

R:  Did that fuel the jealousy?

J:  Only when he fueled the fire with comments like, "Well youÕre just jealous because you donÕt get the attention."

R:  So he knew he was gorgeous?

J:  He knows heÕs good looking, pretty like a model.

R:  Did you ever feel like he was too cute for you?

J:  Everyone in that small town wanted him and I felt like I had to protect him.

R:  Did people want you too?

J:  I dated and had an active sex life before I met him.

R:  You were only twenty-three when you were with him?

J:  Twenty-three when we met.

R:  But you didnÕt come out until you were twenty-two.  The minute you came out you started having sex all the time?

J:  Not all the time.  I think guys take two paths when they come out, either they have sex all the time or they have a small group of gay friends who introduce them around.  When I came out I would go to the bookstore, although for the longest time I wasnÕt having sex with anyone at the book store or even touching.

R:  What were you doing?

J:  I was just watching porno, that was my only outlet.  I found out that I could go to this place and watch men have sex.

R:  Were you even jacking off?

J:  I didnÕt know people did that there.

R:  Did you get a hard on?

J:  Of course, but I didnÕt do anything.

R:  You didnÕt see the cum stains on the walls?

J:  The first time, I just sat there watching the movie.  And then I remember one time seeing a guy jacking off.  I was thinking, "Oh my God, you mean people actually jack off out here.  People take it out of their pants and whack off, thatÕs got to be against the rules."  So for the longest time I didnÕt do anything.

R:  ThatÕs the point, honey.

J:  Well, I know that now.  I also remember someone sticking his dick through a hole and I ran out scared me to death.

R:  You didnÕt suck it?

J:  No!

R:  Did you want to suck it?

J:  I donÕt think so because I didnÕt know who he was.

R:  So you didnÕt want to just have sex for sexÕs sake.

J:  No, I wanted a connection.  I like the male form and I do get excited, but as far as sucking a stranger off, at that time, it didnÕt appeal to me.

R:  Now, of course, itÕs a different story.

J:  Hell, months later it became a different story, of course now IÕm still Mr. Picky, meaning there must be some attraction.

R:  So youÕd rather not have a blow job than have it by someone youÕre not attracted to?

J:  Right.

R:  Are you a top or bottom?

J:  Generally a top, but IÕm versatile.  There are some guys that IÕd rather be fucked by and some that IÕd rather do the fucking.  ItÕs part of the fantasy of when I meet them and are they masculine which I like.

R:  Do you have a hard time finding masculine men?

J:  Nine times out of ten I see a guy who looks masculine, but when I go to talk to him his purse walks out.

R:  Have you dated straight men very often or bi-sexual men?

J:  No.  IÕve had experiences where guys have had girlfriends and IÕve been with married guys but just anonymously.

R:  How do you know?

J:  Well the ringÕs a dead giveaway.   One time I met this guy at the bookstore, whoÕs dick was huge by the way, and we decided to get together.  We left this place for the parking lot, I got in my car and he got in his truck and on the rearview mirror was hanging "just married"

R:  What did you do with him?

J:  He sucked me.  He also had this ass fixation.  He wanted to see my ass and he wanted to fuck my ass, but I wasnÕt going to let that happen.  One, I donÕt think we had a condom and two, his dick was so big I didnÕt want it in me.

R:  How big was it?

J:  It was about eight inches and really thick around.

R:  Do you think he was really straight or did he know that if he painted just married on his truck and wore a wedding ring that he could get any gay man that he wanted?

J:  Well I donÕt know.  I do think that some men do wear bands because itÕs attractive, I even thought about wearing one.  Hell what the fuck?  It seems that when youÕre with someone other people want you.

R:  Are you attracted to all masculine men or gay or straight?

J:  I mean masculine just to my extent.  I can queen out, I just canÕt date a queen. The more masculine, the better.  He doesnÕt have to be a construction worker.  I just want a guy thatÕs a guy, that likes being with men.  If I wanted to date a girl, IÕd go out and find one.  I just want a guy thatÕs gay, knows who he is and still a guy.

R:  You had mentioned the other reason you didnÕt let the guy with the truck fuck you was because you didnÕt have a condom.

J:  Correct.

R:  Now the very first time you had sex with a guy, did you have a condom?

J:  Yeah.

R:  So you knew about safe sex?

J:  I knew all about it.  Even when I was twelve years old I remember AIDS coming out.  I had recently had a little thing with a friend where we had touched and sucked.  I remember talking about it being a gay thing and thinking, "Oh my God, if youÕre gay, you got it."  So I was always paying attention to all the facts about it.

R:  The condom was an issue the first time even though you were drunk?

J:  It was automatic.  If he hadnÕt been on automatic pilot, I would not have let him fuck me.  Even the guy I dated for a year and a half took months before we had sex without a condom and that was mostly me fucking him.

R:  Were you able to enjoy it or were you nervous about it?

J:  I felt pretty comfortable about it with him.

R:  Did you let them cum inside you?

J:  Oh God, no.  I donÕt even let them if their condomÕs kind of tight.  Even I pull out every time unless they say they want me not to.

R:  So you think you have fairly high safe sex standards?

J:  Yeah, aside from the oral.  I donÕt take it in my mouth and I donÕt swallow, but I still suck.

R:  Without a condom?

J:  Yeah.

R:  Do you ever suck dick with a condom?

J:  No.  IÕve only been with one guy that wanted me to suck his dick with a condom.

R:  So you feel confidant that you wonÕt get it that way?

J:  Well, I donÕt feel like IÕm taking a risk.

R:  Have you ever had anything?

J:   IÕve had crabs like three times.

R:  Three times?  How did that happen?

J:  Hell if I know.  Actually I probably had it four times cause thereÕs been one time where I didnÕt know where they came from.  The first time I got them I didnÕt know what they were  This was back in my early days and I went the longest time with them because I didnÕt know what they were.  I probably had them for like three weeks.  At first I didnÕt know I had them, I just started noticing little red dots in my underwear.  I thought maybe it was fuzz from the dryer, then I started itching and then the blood.  And one day I saw one on my arm and I was like, "Oh my God, what is this?"  So then I started looking for more.  And I said, "Oh my God.  I see them here, I them there." I thought it was lice, well it was lice, but it wasnÕt in my hair.  Anyway, I went to the doctor and he told me it was crab lice.  I was so freaked out.

R:  So you knew crabs was a sexually transmitted disease?

J:  Well the doctor had to tell me.

R:  After getting crabs did you think your safe sex practices were good enough?

J:  It didnÕt freak me out that much.  TheyÕre so easy to get and so easy to get rid of, itÕs not fatal.  Men and women get them.

R:  But youÕve had them four times?

J:  Yeah, IÕve had them four times. But  IÕve never had any other type of STD.

R:  Would you be in a relationship with somebody that was positive?

J:  IÕve thought about that a million times and I guess I would.  For example, if I was dating someone and found out he was positive, but we were already in love, IÕd stay with him.  On the other hand, if I met someone and they said they were positive, I donÕt know if I would still want to date him. I guess my answer is yes, because there are situations that I would still date a guy that was positive, but I donÕt know how it would affect our sex life.

R:  Do you talk about AIDS before you have sex with someone?

J:  Basically I live with the theory that everyone has it.  I live my life by the policy that either you do things or you donÕt do things like you either have sex with condoms or you donÕt have sex with condoms.  Either you suck or you donÕt suck.  Not, I will suck someone if I have gone out with them a couple of times.  Cause to me the guy you wonÕt suck at the bookstore tonight is the guy that you meet and now youÕre sucking him because youÕre not in the bookstore but in your bed and itÕs okay then.  I just think thatÕs stupid.  Either you suck dick or you donÕt because youÕve probably sucked positive men before and if you think that oral sex is risky enough that youÕre gonna get it if someone has it, then you probably shouldnÕt be sucking guys at all.

R:  What about pre cum?

J:  I know that it can be carried in pre cum. I guess if the guy was pre cumming a lot then I might not want to do it as much.  Not so much because I think I am going to get AIDS but I donÕt want all that taste in my mouth.   For the most part, oral sex is like sucking on a finger to me.  ItÕs an extremity, itÕs skin, if itÕs not shooting and oozing itÕs like sucking on a finger.  Now if itÕs going to traumatize you the next day because you had sex with someone you know is positive, then maybe you shouldnÕt do it for that reason.

R:  What about rimming?

J:  Rimming, or as we call it: cleaning the kitchen, I enjoy.  ItÕs something that when I first came out I didnÕt necessarily want it done to me and definitely was not doing it to you.  But in the past year itÕs become a little joy in my life.  Me, my roommate and some friends all discovered it at the same time and we all love to do it.

R:  YouÕre like the first rimming club.

J:  Exactly.  As far as its safety, I know itÕs not the cleanest thing to do, but I donÕt worry so much about AIDS but about other STDs.

R:  Like hepatitis?

J:  Yeah, so I donÕt make a habit of it.  I donÕt rim every guy IÕm with.

R:  Have you ever rimmed a guy that wasnÕt clean?

J:  No.  Generally I explore that area some other way before I go there with my face. Fortunately IÕve never gone there and retreated.

R:  You get the boy scout badge for scouting out the rimming spots.

J:  Yeah, I donÕt think IÕve had a bad rimming experience, but like I said, I donÕt do it all the time.

R:  Has anyone ever complained about you not being clean?

J:  No.

R:  Do you prepare for being rimmed?

J:  No.

R:  You donÕt douche or anything?

J:  No, I have never douched and never given myself an enema or plug.  I shower like everyone else and scrub up.  I wash twice instead of once.  Those are the only precautions I take and then I just know myself.  It has happened where IÕm fucking a guy and I have to stop because of the smell, but I get up and turn it into a sexual thing in the shower.  "Let me scrub you off, weÕll get rid of the smell that way."

R:  Do you take charge in your sexual relationships?

J:  Sometimes I get thrown into that position but itÕs not forceful.  Most of the time IÕm just directing it.

R:  So youÕre not into domination, "Suck my dick, fag" kind of stuff?

J:  No.  Dirty talk is fine, but nothing against what I am.  Maybe occasionally IÕll slap that ass but I donÕt know why I do it.  Sometimes they slap my ass and it doesnÕt do a damn thing for me.

R:  Does it bother you?

J:  It doesnÕt bother me, if they like it they can do it.  But if it became a major part of our scene IÕd be like, "Hello.  Stop."

R:  Do you like your tits played with?

J:  Yeah, but not rough.  I like some sucking but donÕt try to bite them off.

R:  Do you meet a lot of guys who want to bit your tits off?

J:  IÕve met a couple.  And IÕm just like, "Stop."  The same with like pinching really hard.

R:  What is your favorite thing to do in bed?

J:  A dick and balls in my face.  IÕm most turned on when IÕm on my back and theyÕre over me in sixty-nine position.  They donÕt even have to be sucking me.  Just to have his dick and balls hanging in my face, the smell, the taste, some sucking and looking at his balls and ass.  I know IÕm with a man if IÕve got a fucking dick and balls in my face.

R:  You say youÕre a top but you love this position the most?

J:  When I say "top" IÕm referring only to fucking.

R:  Do you prefer sex in the bed or in a public place?

J:  If IÕm really into the guy IÕd rather be some place where we can be totally uninhibited.  But I do like public sex.  I tend to lean more to the bookstores just because theyÕre close to my house, but I also like the Rambles, outdoors and the pier.  I discovered the pier just this year and wow thatÕs fun.

R:  So youÕre more into anonymous sex now then when you first came out?

J:  Living in the country versus living in the city youÕre just exposed to more.  If you see blood and guts on TV every night, after a while it just doesnÕt phase you to see it anymore.  You discover more and you find out more, you have more friends that are doing this or that.  You try something, experiment some and then you just progress.

R:  Do you feel like youÕve done the relationship thing?

J:  No, I donÕt feel like IÕve done it enough.  IÕd rather have a relationship, but I have a fear of commitment.  I have this fear of someone liking me too much and me not liking them enough and me hurting them.  Then I have the other side of the coin where I fear too much needing on my part.  Anonymous sex is safe in an emotional sense.

R:  How much does fear drive your life?

J:  Probably too much in a lot of aspects.  Fear of failure and losing.  I have become more and more the person who just goes through life.

R:  Do you think about the future a lot?

J:  I do in the sense of what am I going to do.  IÕm twenty-eight with a masterÕs so I think itÕs time to get serious.   At least, thatÕs what I tell myself.  I want to get serious.  I want to find what serious is, then I want to get right into it and make money doing it and be happy.

R:  Do you ever think youÕre going to die young?

J:  Sometimes I do.  I always joke with my roommate that I donÕt want to be older than sixty-five because I look at older men and the more I see, the less I think itÕs likely to be with someone and to have someone.  Who wants to be the old man walking around the bar?  Who wants to be old and alone?

R:  YouÕd rather be dead than be that person?

J:  I would unless I find something that fills that void.

R:  So you wouldnÕt sleep with older men?

J:  I havenÕt.

R:  Does age turn you off?

J:  It turns me off sexually.

R:  Do you worry about getting ugly?

J:  Yeah.

R:  Does turning thirty scare you?

J:  No actually I am okay with thirty, itÕs after thirty that worries me.

R:  Do you worry about not being desirable in a few years?

J:  Yeah because it just happens.

R:  Do you ever think you may become more desirable as you age?

J:  ThatÕs a possibility, but I donÕt take comfort in that.

R:  Are your sexual tastes changing as you get older?

J:  Yeah, they do. IÕm now more attracted to thirty-two and thirty-five year old men.

R:  But forty-five would be out of the question?

J:  Yeah.

R:  What if it was like Arnold Schwartzenegger or Mel Gibson? Would you kick them out of bed?

J:  I might not kick them out of bed, but I donÕt know if I could date them.  It goes back to that sex versus dating thing.  Maybe I could have sex with Mel Gibson.

R:  Maybe you could have sex with Mel Gibson?

J:  Well Mel Gibson, I love his characters.  I donÕt know.  I have open taste.  It goes back to that date or fuck thing.  There are guys that I would want to date and those I just want to fuck.  I wouldnÕt mind dating the average Joe if heÕs cute.

R:  Would you be in a relationship with a guy you werenÕt one hundred percent sexually into?

J:  If I was in love, yes.  There would have to be some attraction, I mean sex is important enough that there should be some excitement there.

R:  How important is the sex?

J:  Initially itÕs more important.  If itÕs bunk from the get go, then no.  But good is good enough.

R:  How often do you need sex?

J:  Too much.  This week itÕs been a good week, but for the most part IÕm totally addicted.  IÕd do it every day if I had a boyfriend, maybe even twice a day.

R:  Do you ever use a phone sex line?

J:  IÕve used them.

R:  Have you met a lot of men through phone sex?

J:  Not a lot.

R:  Do you lie about how you look on the phone?

J:  I never lie about anything because I only get on there to hook up and hopefully if I meet someone they will see the truth.

R:  Have you had guys lie to you?

J:  Yeah and it shocks me.  Three weeks ago this guy on the west side was telling me he was Italian, hairless, worked out, good looking, big dick, blah blah blah.  Everything sounded good to me.  I get there and heÕs the fucking hobbit.  He was probably about 5Õ6", glasses, pot belly,not attractive.

R:  Was there anything that he said that  could be true in his mind?

J:  The hair color was the same but the body was not.

R:  So did you guys fool around at all?

J:  No, I just left.  It absolutely shocks me.  They say theyÕre whatever and then you get there and theyÕre not anything like the description.  I donÕt lie, why do they?  If itÕs just phone sex then thatÕs  different.  I could be the Chelsea god if thatÕs what they want me to be.  But the whole lying thing is why I donÕt use the sex lines, thereÕs other options.

R:  So youÕve done everything?

J:  I guess I have.

R:  Have you tried scat?

J:  No, I donÕt get into those things.

R:  Piss?

J:  No.  My boyfriend may have pissed on me but I donÕt like it.  It didnÕt gross me out, but I donÕt purposely lay on the floor to have somebody piss on me.  I donÕt get into any of those games.  If some guy was really hot and we were in the shower and he pees on me and it goes down the drain, then maybe.  But shitting, no.  Forget it.  There is no way I will introduce that into any encounter.

R:  Would you piss on someone if they wanted you to?

J:  Yeah, IÕd piss on someone.  It wouldnÕt turn me on.  But to shit, no.

R:  Does it shock you?

J:  The one thing that shocks me and I will never understand it, canÕt imagine ever doing it, wanting to do it, if you do it thatÕs fine, but I will never do it, is felching.  Or as someone else called it, shrimping.  ItÕs where someone cums up your ass and they suck it out with a straw.  And thereÕs also a douching part to it to, but either way thatÕs just gross.

R:  Why do you think people get into that kind of stuff?

J:  I donÕt know.I think  maybe theyÕre bored, I think for some itÕs taking the masculinity thing to another level.

R:  Shitting on someone is masculine?

J:  Well maybe not shitting on someone, but that no holds barred feeling.

R:  What about animals?  Have you ever made it with a dog?

J:  No.

R:  Have you ever wanted to?

J:  No.  I raised some calves when I was young.  Bottle fed them every morning until they were older and once I wanted to see what it would be like for them to suck my dick.  But after I saw what they did to that bottle, I was afraid theyÕd either bite it off or never let go.

R:  But you thought about it?

J:  I thought about it but it never went any further than the thought.

R:  What have you thought about wanting to do but havenÕt done?

J:  I have done just about everything that I wanted to do.

R:  Have you had any dangerous situations where things have gotten out of control?

J:  Not really, but my roommate is convinced that it will happen to me one of these times because IÕm so liberal.

R:  You donÕt have any horror stories?

J:  There have been a few times when I wake up and the guy isnÕt  cute anymore.  There was this one guy, not too long ago,  and we slept together.  The next morning my roommate was just like what the hell weÕre you doing. See thatÕs the problem, IÕm just so sexually driven.

R:  Do you do drugs?I like X.  The few times IÕve done coke I liked it.  I met this guy at gay pride and we started doing coke and then we had sex.  After we were through I just couldnÕt go home.  I was just wired.  I walked in the rain and sat in front of the cathedral on Fifth Avenue waiting for the parade.  That was the only time I was ever out of control.

R:  What was it like when you came down?

J:  It wasnÕt like scary in the corner thing, but when I started coming down I went through a little bit of paranoia.

R:  Does it bother you to sleep alone?

J:  Sleeping alone doesnÕt bother me, but it would be nice to have someone here.  I just want to feel that someone out there is thinking about me.  If we exchange numbers and IÕm thinking, "Should I call him?"  I want him thinking the same thing about me.

R:  Do you tend to blow them off before they can blow you off?

J:  Sometimes.  It goes back to not wanting to get hurt.

R:  Do you meet a lot of guys that want to move in right away?

J:  I used to have that a lot in Texas, but I donÕt find that here.  New York is a different mind set.  ThereÕs so much activity, so much temptation, so much just around the corner that I donÕt find many guys that are waiting to move in.

R:  Do you sleep with people on the first date or do you have rules about that?

J:  I have the old rule:  if itÕs someone I really like then I wonÕt.  It goes back to that fucking/dating thing.  If itÕs someone youÕre actually connecting with then they understand.

R:  Does it matter if you give it up on the first date?

J:  I have a friend that thinks itÕs ridiculous, instead heÕs thinks the longer you wait the more complicated it becomes.  The first kiss is the dreaded one, then once itÕs done itÕs okay, so why not just do it?  Why hold out for the idea that you may see each other again.  If you want to have sex, have sex and then if you want to see each other again, then see each other again.

R:  Do you feel like youÕre a small town boy?

J:  I think a lot of me does.

R:  Do you talk to your parents a lot?

J:  I talk to my mom a lot, my dad died of cancer last year right after I moved to the city.  It was unexpected, and it was very hard to deal with.  He was my step-dad actually but he had been around since I was six years old.  My biological father was such a dickhead, I donÕt even talk to him, I havenÕt talked to him in years.  If he knows IÕm here itÕs because of my half-sister.

R:  Does he know youÕre gay?

J:  No.  I consider my biological father just that.  As far as I am concerned my dad is dead.

R:  You think of your step-father as dad?

J:  Yeah, and heÕs dead.

R:  How did he deal with your homosexuality?

J:  Very well.  We didnÕt tell him right away.  I told mom in August and it wasnÕt until October that dad found out, mom told him.  As more people found out at school then more people found out at home and someone mentioned it to my dad.  When you come from a small town everybody talks and I didnÕt want him to hear about it that way so my mom decided to tell him.  He called me and I realized when he called me that he knew and I started crying.  He was just like, "WhatÕs wrong?  I think youÕre making a mountain out of a mole hill.  YouÕre our son and we love you anyway.  We play with the cards weÕre dealt."  It was that simple, we talked about it one time and never talked about it again.

R:  Do you think it was easier for him because you werenÕt his biological son?

J:  I never thought about that because he considered me a son.  I was an angel compared to his children.  He talked more about me to other people than his own children.  When he died more people came up to me and my mother and said, "WeÕre sorry for your loss."  We were very close.

R:  He didnÕt ask you to explain anything about homosexuality?

J:  He didnÕt, on the other hand, my mom does.  My mom knows everything about me.

R:  Did he mention AIDS?

J:  My mom worries about AIDS but we donÕt talk too much about it.  But I know she worries so whenever I get tested I slip it into the conversation somehow, "and in case youÕre wondering..."

R:  How often do you get tested?

J:  About every six months.

R:  Every time you get tested do you expect the results to come back positive?

J:  The first time I got tested I didnÕt think it was going to be positive because it was the first time.  I donÕt think because of one instance where I had unsafe sex I will die, but who knows?   Who knows if oral sex is totally safe?  And the more people you are with the greater your risk, and I know that IÕm with a lot of people.

R:  Do you feel confident when you test negative like you want to go out and have a lot of sex?  Do you feel invincible?

J:  Sometimes fearless, sometimes stupid.  Not too long ago I met this guy walking home and picked him up.  (I had just heard this story about him breaking up with this cute guy so that made me more horny.)  So we get to this street and I grab his crotch.  We went into this house where we donÕt know the people, but it looked like there was a party going on.  I asked if we were late and the guy said no youÕre kind of early.  So we go in and head upstairs.  The second floor was all bedrooms but I said I canÕt go into some strangerÕs bedroom so we go out on this porch.

We started talking and kissing and groping each other.  All of a sudden the screen door opens and this guy comes out and says whatÕs up and I was like well before you got here we were kissing and he said, "Oh really?"  You should have seen his eyes.  None of the guys at this party were gay and I didnÕt know any of these people.  He was like, "Oh wow, thatÕs pretty weird. Two gay guys in my house kissing with ACDC playing in the background.  Well I just came up to talk but I feel like IÕve interrupted something."  I was like, "Well, yeah, to be honest we were at this bar and we just need a place to hang out for a minute, maybe grope a little bit, and then weÕll be gone."  He said, "Well just donÕt steal anything," and leaves.

So there was this old couch sitting outside and we just fall on it.  So weÕre kissing and mine comes out, then his comes out.  Now were jacking each other off and heÕs sucking me.  IÕm just laying back in the corner of this couch with my pants down around my ankles and heÕs giving me head.  I look up and the porch light come on, the screen door opens and there are four guys on the balcony.  The guy zips his pants up and IÕm just sitting there with a hard on and these guys are standing around us.  TheyÕre like, "WhatÕs going on?  ItÕs not cool to come into someoneÕs house and start fucking on their stuff."  I was like, "WeÕre not fucking and weÕre not going to fuck." The whole time my pants are still down and IÕm just wondering which one of these guys is looking at my dick?  And I said, "Would you be saying the same thing if it was a guy and a girl?"  "Well we donÕt know you and you just need to leave."  The minute he says that Frank jumps up and leaves.  Well I have to stand up and pull up my pants and I was being all cool about it and I said, "Well it was nice to meet you.  See you later."  And they just slammed the door.

R:  What other crazy thing have you done?

J:   There was this place on the pier where I met this guy in broad daylight and he started giving me head then these guys came over, "Let us watch, we never see anything like this at home."  I was like, "You know in most parts of the city it would cost you money to see this."  And they said they would pay.  I said, "As long as I hear money falling through the chain-link fence you can watch." So they started throwing change and then they stopped and I stopped and they were like, "Why?"  And I said, "I donÕt hear money dropping."  So they started dropping more money, and he gave me head for a while longer.  Then we decided we better take it somewhere else.

R:  Have you ever hustled?

J:  No.  IÕve thought about it recently because IÕm out of work.  I think I could take money for sex but I donÕt know if I could actually do what they want me to do.

R:  Did you ever pay for sex?

J:  No, but IÕve seen hustlers that I would have paid for if I had the money.  If I had the money I would make it a regular part of my life.

R:  You wouldnÕt have a problem with it?

J:  It would be a part of my sex life.  It wouldnÕt be thatÕs the only way I can get it.  It would be, "IÕm horny tonight and this guy looks hot, so IÕll call him up.  IÕve got two hundred to blow, who cares?"  But in my current situation, IÕd beat myself up for months if I dropped two hundred dollars on a hustler.  I did pay for a massage once and we ended up having sex.

R:  Was he hot?

J:  He had a great body.  He let me clean his kitchen.

R:  You rimmed him?

J:  Yeah.

R:  What other wild stories?

J:  Well if IÕm going to tell stories, I have to tell this one.

R:  Okay.

J:  We refer to it as "The Cheap Dick Whore Story."  There was this guy I met when I first moved here, his name was Joe.  I met him at the Apollo Theater when it was open and had sex.  Several months went by and I decided to call him just out of the blue, we started talking and he decided he was going to come into the city to see me.  So one night my roommate was spending the night in Brooklyn, and I told Joe to come down and weÕd have a good time.  So we went to dinner, well first we had sex.

R:  Before dinner?

J:  Yeah, right through the door, we had sex.  HeÕs very forceful and rough and likes to take control, but that doesnÕt work well because he wasted no time and just kind of shoved it in.  Anyway, afterwards we go to dinner.  Now he didnÕt bring anything to wear to work the next day so he wanted to go buy a cheap sweatshirt.  We go to Times Square to get him a sweatshirt and as weÕre walking back to my house we pass by the Eros theatre.  As weÕre passing, this cute guy came walking out.  So cute, short, dark haired boy, my type and I cannot stop looking at this cutie and he keeps returning my looks. So I motion him over to us.  Meanwhile IÕm thinking, "What am I doing?  IÕve got Joe here, weÕre on a date and heÕs spending the night."  But I was so attracted to this guy and knowing Joe, I knew it would be okay.  So I asked this guy if he wanted to get out of the cold for a little bit; he could come over to the house and have some beer.  So he comes back to my apartment and it turns out that he was a dancer at the Eros. So we get back to my place and he sits on a chair and we sit on the couch.  And Joe wastes no time saying, "Are we going to see your dick?"  And IÕm like, "Why donÕt you do your show for us?"  So I set the stage,I put on that Nine Inch Nails song Closer  and  he puts on his little cop uniform and starts doing his whole dance number.

R:  For free?

J:  For free, and he comes over to the couch and we all start messing around and he had a huge dick.  So weÕre going at it, sucking and touching and this and that.  And Joe was getting really verbal. Joe mounts him first and I get underneath.  IÕm playing with his chest and jacking him off and then I fucked him.  So now weÕre taking turns fucking this guy, no mercy.  When Joe was fucking him, I thought he was going to break the futon.  The guy was holding onto the back and Joe was just like, "Yeah, you fucking whore.  You cheap dick whore.  You love this.  YouÕre just nothing but a cheap dick whore."  Spits on his back, all this crap.  IÕm starting to feel sorry for the guy.

R:  But the guy was into it?

J:  I guess.  He was letting it happen.  HeÕs like, "Yeah, I know."  He was just responding to whatever Joe said.  So this goes on for a while, then we move into the back room.  And Joe just has him face down on the bed then stands up, grabs the guyÕs ankles and yanks him down to the edge of the bed.  The guy is clawing at the covers and everything.  I was sitting there watching this and Joe starts fucking him again.  The Joe starts in with the, "You cheap dick whore, thatÕs all you are."  I donÕt know how he was still doing it, this was for like an hour or more.  I fucked him again and then Joe finished him off just degrading this guy, spitting on him, telling him he was a cheap dick whore, and what a fuck up he was.  ThatÕs the closest I ever got to being scared in a sexual situation.

R:  Is Joe always a top?

J:  Yeah.  So this goes on, and I just watched them fuck, then I got off, we all got off, then the guy decides to sleep with us.  So he slept with us, spent the night between us.  The next morning we took showers.

R:  You guys didnÕt do it again in the morning?

J:  We messed around, but nothing like the night before.

R:  So JoeÕs a mean fuck?

J:  Yeah.

R:  Do you still see him?

J:  No, that was the last time I saw him and I havenÕt talked to him since.

R:  What turned you on about that scene?

J:  Watching Joe do it.

R:  Did you want to be on the receiving end of it?

J:  God no.  For someone to be that rough with me would turn me off.  I couldnÕt believe this guy was taking it.  Not just the verbal abuse, but as hard as Joe was fucking him, I could not believe this guy was taking it.

R:  So sex is easy for you to find?

J:   I guess you could say that.

SCENE: MICHAEL-45 PAGES

The Jewish piss guy

M:  My name is Micheal.  IÕm in my 40s, gay and work a government office job.

R:  How long have you been gay?

M:  Always.  I mean letÕs put it this way, when I was young obviously I didnÕt know what it meant gay, straight, whatever.  But I knew for sure at 12 that I was gay.  ThereÕs one specific incident I remember.  There was a guy in class next to me and I was somewhat  interested in him.  But, I didnÕt know anything.  But I started touching him.

R:  In a class or...?

M:  Nothing major, just casual like on the leg.  And another thing I remember when I was 12 was finding people my age interesting.

R:  Did you have sex with them?

M:  No, no.  I didnÕt do anything about it at the time, but I definitely realized what my interest was.

R:  You were having sexual thoughts about other men when you were 12?

M:  I donÕt think sexual thoughts, but thoughts about men would be more specific.

R:  Were you having thoughts about women as well?

M:  No, specifically men. I guess I had it in mind to get married and have children.  But as far as my attraction, it was definitely towards men.

R: Did you grow up very traditional?

M:  Yeah, I did, my family and a society of traditional laws, you know.  I thought theyÕre just feelings,  I didnÕt particularly think about it, didnÕt do anything about it.  You know I used to look at TV Guide when I was younger.  I used to look at the pictures of men and stuff like that, you know, and play with myself a little bit.

R:  When did you start jacking off?

M:  I donÕt know exactly, I would say maybe around 13.  So 12 was a big year for me, 12, 13 this was a big turning point for me.  But IÕll tell you something I remember before 12. I must have been  5 years old, I was playing with a friend my age in the park.  And we weÕre digging up dirt from the earth.   I even remember what he was wearing, short brown pants, it still sticks in my mind and this was back a while.  Anyway,  I remember we wanted to get a better consistency to dig into so he peed on the earth.  I still remember that.

R:  That was very exciting for you?

M:  Yeah.

R:  So you saw him peeing?

M:  Yeah.

R:  Uh huh.  Did you pee too?

M:  Not at that time.  Subsequently though,  IÕve done it a lot.

R:  So you get into pissing?

M:  Yeah, not to say that was what caused it.

R:  So your first sexual experience, or if you wanna say, the first semi sexual experience you remember was watching your friend piss in the dirt?

M:  Yeah.

R:  And now to this day you get into pissing a lot?  Is it a common theme for you or just one of the little things you do?

M:  No, I do it a number of times.

R:  Would you say itÕs one of your big things sexually?

M:  Yeah I would say so. Even today I pissed in the street when I was coming here.

R:  You did?

M:  Yeah.

R:  Today?

M:  Yeah.

R:  So you love to piss?

M:  Yeah.

R:  You love to piss in public?

M:   Public, private, yeah.  My pants are still a little wet.

R:  But you take your dick out of your pants.

M:  Not necessarily.

R:  You peed in your pants on your way over here today?

M:  Mostly itÕs outside, but there are many times when I do it in my pants.

R:  Like when youÕre walking around?

M:  Occasionally in the house and sometimes on the street, once I did it in a bar.

R:  Really?  IÕve never heard anything like this.

M:  A lot of people are into water sports.

R:  I know people are into water sports but I never heard of someone just pissing in their pants.  Do you like to get pissed on, do you like to do the pissing, or do you like both?

M:  Both.  WeÕll put it this way, it depends on how, where and when.  Like if itÕs in clothing,  I like to either do it myself or watch others do it,  and thatÕs whether itÕs inside or outside of my pants.  If itÕs pissing on others, IÕll do it both ways, but I would say the winning edge goes to pissing on others.  Or down someoneÕs throat, IÕve done that a couple of times.  Although, not too many people are interested in that.

R:  They arenÕt?  It seems like itÕs getting more common.

M:   Well itÕs not a question I would normally ask, because frankly if IÕm with someone, I know that will turn him off, so I wouldnÕt bring it up often. It is, however,  how IÕve met some people.

R:  So youÕre really into it?

M:  Yeah.

R:  Uh hum.  So you said your pants are a little wet today, right now?

M:  Well drying a little, I canÕt tell much in the light, but you can feel itÕs wet.

R:  But you did pee in your pants today?

M:  Yeah.

R:  But then you peed today also in the street?

M:  Well I started it in my pants and then I did the rest in the street.

R:  Did someone see you?

M:  No, no one would. Although sometimes I like when people watch.

R:  Really?

M:  Yeah.

R:  So, what is the turn on of pissing in your pants?  Is it the warm feeling or is it the danger?

M:  ItÕs exciting and warm.  I also think itÕs a release, like youÕre holding it in and then you let go.  I donÕt know what else to compare it to, but itÕs like say the weather is freezing outside and the minute you walk in the door its like Aaaaahhh.  ItÕs exciting.  The mess is great, too.

R:  But would you rather piss in your pants or in the toilet?

M:  In my pants.

R:  How often do you piss in your pants?

M:  ItÕs sort of cyclical.  Some weeks more than others.

R:  But you wouldnÕt do it if you were at work though?

M:  No, I couldnÕt do that.  I mean I have to be careful.  Although once I remember I was working overtime.  It was late and nobody was around and I really had to go.  So I let go a little bit in my pants.  It was a pair of black pants, so it wasnÕt that noticeable.

R:  Is it sexually arousing?

M:  Not pissing itself, but afterwards I go back home sometimes and jerk off.

R:  So have you jerked off today yet or are you going to later on today?

M:  Not today yet.

R:  Do you jack off every day?

M:  It depends. I did jerk off last night, but it had nothing to do with piss.  Sometimes I do it daily, sometimes once a week, and sometimes once in a couple of weeks.  It just depends.

R:  Do you watch pissing videos?

M:  IÕve watched a couple. I actually went to a video store somewhere in the Village and they had two pissing videos, but they didnÕt seem that interesting so I let it go.

R:  Now what about public urinals?  Is that a big turn on to you, watching other guys lined up at the urinals and pissing?

M:  Yeah.

R:  So if you had to piss and you were at your house would you just use the toilet?  Or would you say, "IÕm gonna go out and piss in the street or IÕm gonna go find a public urinal?"

M:  It depends. Actually, I hardly use my toilet. Depending on the situation, like if IÕm in a rush or IÕm doing other things or I canÕt bother changing clothes.  What I often do is take a container, look out the window, see somebody interesting passing by and piss in the container.

R:  So people can see?

M:  Well I donÕt necessarily do it so they can see it.  Well sometimes I do it so people can look, but other times just because I enjoy it.

R:  Do you know a lot of people that are into water sports?

M:   I wouldnÕt say a lot, but I know some.

R:  Are you connected with a group of guys where you all get together and have parties?  Like a piss circle of Manhattan men?

M:  ThereÕs at least one organization, which IÕm not familiar with, but friends of mine told me about it.  ItÕs called...I wanna say G...G...something...

R:  Golden Showers?

M:  Golden Showers of America!  They have piss parties. There was a water sports organization that I belonged to a couple of years ago.  You placed ads basically and people would call or write you if they were interested.  I got some responses and I called up some others.  But frankly, when the couple hundred members are spread throughout the country, you can imagine the difficulty finding the few local members.  The vast majority are not around the corner.  There was one couple that contacted me from upstate but they didnÕt  follow through considering the time tables for work and the expense of going up there all for something that may or may not materialize.

R:  How important are looks and pissing connected?  I mean is it more the idea of a dick and piss coming out of it?  Or is it really important to someone if theyÕre getting pissed on what the guy looks like?

M:  The person should at least look reasonable, and the nicer the better.

R:  So itÕs not just the idea of being pissed on.

M:  No,  appearance counts as well.  I mean if I saw somebody ugly or 90 years old, I wouldnÕt be interested in peeing on them or having them pee on me.  Maybe if I was desperate, but I donÕt know if I could get that desperate.

R:  Do you like the taste and smell of urine like do you ever drink your own piss in your house and stuff?

M:  Occasionally IÕve done it.  And occasionally IÕve tasted otherÕs.

R:  Does it taste different?

M:  EverybodyÕs piss tastes different.

R:  Really?  What changes....

M:  IÕm not the expert in the field.

R:  Well youÕre pretty close.

M:  IÕm not a doctor, but apparently it depends on what youÕre eating and drinking before.  In other words if you basically drink water or soda itÕs more bland.  Eating more things with greater substance or with spice is more flavorful.

R:  Do you have a preference?   Do you like clear or do you like it yellow?

M:  I like it yellow.  IÕd rather it look like piss.

R:  Do you have a preference in taste?

M:   I donÕt drink it too often.  But, if itÕs strong in a way itÕs nice, but then itÕs a lot to digest, and you know itÕs rather tart.

R:  Do you swallow it or do you just taste it and then spit it out?

M:  Occasionally I swallow it.  IÕm a little leery for medical reasons, although supposedly, itÕs not supposed to be really dangerous.

R:  I heard itÕs supposed to be very safe actually cause piss is supposed to be sterile?

M:  I wouldnÕt technically have a problem drinking it or giving it to someone else to drink.  There are worse things I do.

R:  When youÕre with guys, do most guys wanna drink piss or do they just wanna have it in their mouth?

M:  The ones in my minimal experience wanna drink it.  If they want it in their mouth, theyÕll  swallow.

R:  Do they want you to pee in their mouth, do they want you to hold your dick and have the pee shoot in their mouth or do they wanna have their mouth on your dick while the pee is going into their mouth?

M:  All the way in, as if theyÕre sucking.

R:  As if theyÕre sucking?  And then they want you to let go and let the pee rush down their throat?

M:  All the way down their throat, yeah.

R:  Are they aggressive with you or do they want you to be aggressive and feel like theyÕre being forced to drink your piss?

M:  Not the people IÕm familiar with.  Some people are just more into drinking piss.

R:  Have you ever been to a piss party where like five of you peed on one person?

M:  IÕm not like on a mailing list or anything, but there was one time.  It was in a loft in Chelsea.  You could either wear your clothes, chuck your clothes or whatever you wanted to do.  They had like a bar area in the front where you could drink, but you couldnÕt take the drinks into the piss area.  They had like a big urinal there instead, a trough actually, and people did what they wanted with the piss.

R:  But now, thereÕs a big sex club in San Francisco called Blow Buddies, and they had a piss room where people would lay in these bathtubs all night and people would just walk through and piss on them. Is it a turn on, the more people the better or would you rather be one on one with somebody?

M:  More one on one, but both sound good.

R:  So when did you start?  After the boy pissed in the dirt experience, when was the next time you fooled around with piss?

M:  Around 13, I used to piss in my pants in the house.

R: When you were young you pissed in your pants in the house?

M:  Yes, purposely.

R:  So youÕve been doing this your whole life?

M:  If you wanna call it that.

R:  Have you ever had a time when you were not peeing in your pants?

M:  After my mother found it once and it became harder for me to hide it.  I used to try to wash it, but still it was hard to hide.  So I stopped until maybe 15 years ago.

R:  Do you get into scat as well?

M:   I have a very, very minimal interest in it.  Occasionally what I would do when I was younger and even now on rare occasions, is shit in my pants, generally indoors but even outdoors.

R:  Purposely?

M:  Yeah, no one would see it obviously.

R: What was the turn on to that?

M:  It was exciting, it was a release, especially if you really have to go.

R:  How often have you done it?

M:  Not as much as water sports, but I did do it once a couple of days ago.

R:  You did?

M:  Yeah, at home.   I was laying in bed doing some paper work.  I had underpants and pants on that I didnÕt mind getting wet or soiled. And I had to go so I just let it go.

R:  And when did you clean it up?

M:   I went to the bathroom and I changed.

R:  Right away or did you sit in it for a while?

M:  Not too long, you know, maybe 5 minutes, not like an hour or two.

R:  Was it a turn on to you?  Did you get a hard on and jack off after you did it?

M:   I didnÕt jack off.  It was a turn on, but I probably had to piss also, so, you know.

R:  Did you pee in your pants right after you pooped in your pants?

M:  No, I did have to pee, but I thought let me clean my clothes first because if you piss and shit in your pants itÕs gonna be more messy.

R:  What about your sheets?

M:  It didnÕt go through.

R:  It didnÕt go through?

M:  Well it started to go through my underpants and a little bit into the jeans I had on.

R:  Oh, you were wearing pants as well?

M:  Yeah, jeans.

R:  I thought you were just laying in your underwear on your bed.

M:  No, I had regular clothes on.

R:  So did it go through to your jeans?

M:  It went through the underpants.  You know it really depends on if itÕs loose or tight, but a little bit started to go through into the pants.

R:  So would you wash those pants before youÕd wear them again?  Or would you wear them again?

M:  No, IÕd wash them.

R:  So you wouldnÕt wear soiled pants like the next day?

M:  No, I never do that.

R:  You would never do that?

M:  No.

R:  But you are wearing soiled pants right now?

M:  Well wet.

R:  Well wet, meaning you would wear those same jeans tomorrow?

M:  If I wet my pants only a little bit, IÕd just let them dry and wear them again.  Not to work or anything like that, but to lounge around in or play in.  Now if they were completely wet IÕd wash them out.

R:  Let me ask you a really stupid question.  Does your house smell like urine?

M:  No.  Not at all.

R:  So if someone came into your house they would not know you were into piss and shit?

M:  No, I would not want it to smell like that.   I wash the clothes that I get wet and let them dry in the bathtub. I donÕt launder them all the time because normally I wear them just for this purpose.  I have special clothes that I like to wear for it.

R:  Oh you do?

M:  Well like what IÕm wearing now, for example.

R:  This would be like your pissing or shitting outfit?

M:  This is piss, well itÕs more, 99% is piss really.

R:  Describe what youÕre wearing.

M:  I have on a pair of LeviÕs, somewhat holey.

R:  ThereÕs a hole in the crotch.

M:  There are holes in some places and a button front.  I have regular underpants underneath.  And sneakers, socks, shirt, undershirt, jacket, cap...

R:  Uh huh.  LetÕs talk more about shit.  Often do you shit in your pants?

M:  When I feel like it or have the opportunity.  The bottom line is maybe once a month.

R:  Once a month, for like the last 10 years?  15 years?  20 years?  30 years?

M:  LetÕs say 10 years.

R:  The last 10 years youÕve done it once a month?

M:  The last 10 years, once a month, yes.

R:  Uh huh.  And have you ever shit on anyone?

M:  No.

R:  And on oneÕs ever shit on you?

M:  No.

R:  But do you think thatÕs the next step?

M:  No.

R:  You donÕt wanna get into that?

M:  No.  Water sports I really like much more.  I never met anyone who was into scat really.

R:  You never did?

M:  No.  You know if anything IÕll look for water sports.  But then again, I donÕt often look for that, I just look for sexual things.  Although I prefer water sports, I enjoy other things as well.  But scat doesnÕt particularly interest me, maybe to a slight degree.  LetÕs put it this way, say after I leave here and IÕm walking home I really have to take a shit, maybe IÕll let it go in my pants.

R:  Today you will?

M:  Maybe, I mean I donÕt have to now.  But letÕs assume I was to shit in my pants.  ItÕs not a problem because IÕm going home so I can change right away, you know.  If I was going to work I couldnÕt.

R:  Would you do it when you get closer to your apartment or would you do it like right away?  Would you walk like 20 blocks with it?  Would you ride the subway with it?

M:  Once I wanted to do it in the subway come to think of it, but I didnÕt. But I was coming home from work and I remember I wanted to do it.  But it didnÕt materialize, letÕs say.

R:  DidnÕt materialize?

M:  Maybe I was a little leery cause the other people on the train, in case they smelled it or something.

R:  Has it ever happened to you?  Have you ever shit in your pants and you could tell someone could smell it?

M:  Usually I do it in the house so thereÕs nobody else there.

R:  But when youÕre walking home?

M:  ThatÕs on very rare occasions.

R:  Do you like the feel walking around with shit in your pants?

M:  Maybe, but itÕs more doing it than the actual feel of it.

R:  ItÕs the act of doing it?

M:  Yeah.  Frankly, itÕs more trouble for me to clean up.

R:  Yeah, I would think.   So do you shit a lot or does it vary?

M:  ItÕs not always the same.  But I mean the times that I do it is often times when I really do have to go, so it tends to be a lot.  I remember once I was doing it in the house in just my underpants and I was looking out the window and saw somebody interesting, I just let go.  But, it didnÕt all make it in the underpants.  Some got on the floor.

R:  Some shit got on the floor?

M:  Yeah.

R:  Do you have carpet?

M:  No, itÕs a regular wood floor, so itÕs no problem.

R:  ThatÕs good.

M:  Now if it was carpet I would be more leery doing it, you know, but a regular wooden floor is not a big problem.

R:  Do a lot of your friends know that youÕre into this?

M:  The minimal scat thing, no.  The water sports, yes, IÕve told a few people.

R:  But you havenÕt talked about the fact that you shit in your pants to anyone?

M:  I donÕt think I have.

R:  IÕm the first person youÕve told?

M:  Yeah, I mean people donÕt normally ask these kind of questions, really.

R:  They should.

M:   The question hasnÕt come up and IÕm not particularly interested in it, unlike the water sports where I might wanna bring up the subject. But scat doesnÕt particularly interest me, although I guess IÕve done more than others.  There are straight people interested in it, too, I understand.

R:  There are?

M:  Well, not that I know personally, but I once got this catalog in the mail and it was stories about people, men and women both, basically straight but also gay, who were into piss and scat.  Stories about reverting to childhood, like being put in a crib and wearing diapers, which doesnÕt interest me by the way.

R:  Diapers donÕt interest you?

M:  No.  I mean IÕve seen it, but it doesnÕt interest me at all.

R:  Cribs donÕt interest you?

M:  No.  Nor the baby bottle or any of that.

R:  It does not interest you at all?

M:  No.

R:  Does it turn you on the idea of other people pissing in their pants?

M:  Yeah.

R:  So if I started pissing my pants, and I told you, would it be a turn on to you?

M:  You, or anybody else, yeah.

R:  So you donÕt talk to that many people about scat, but you talk to people about piss.  Do you think itÕs rare that most people do not do it?  Or do you think that most people do and never talk about it?  WhatÕs your perception?

M:  I would think as far as scat is the subject, very, very few people are interested in that.  Now as far as water sports, there are people who do it.   I mean I know a lot of people are into these groups and itÕs more common.

R:  But scat is not so common.  Now IÕve never heard of anyone who pooped in their pants.  Have you ever talked to someone who said, oh yeah, I do that too sometimes?

M:  No, I never brought it up.  I mean it doesnÕt particularly interest me that much.

R:  ThatÕs right.  But you do it!  You do it more than most people do, if you do it once a month.

M:  I estimated once a month, maybe not that often, certainly not as much as I like pissing my pants.

R:  But you donÕt apologize for it.  You donÕt think itÕs abnormal, you donÕt think, "Oh God IÕm a freak, I wanna pee and poop my pants."  You just think, "Oh thatÕs what IÕm into and itÕs no big deal."

M:  Basically I would say, yeah.

R:  But did you ever have hang ups?  Did you ever think that this is bad or wrong?

M:  Well as far as being gay and so on, thatÕs another story.  ThatÕs a deeper kind of thing. As far the water sports part, when I was younger I guess maybe I used to feel like IÕm the only one that was into it.  Obviously, over a period of time I discovered there were others who were interested in it.  But most gay people are not into this.

R:  Now are you into the gay community?

M:  IÕm not active in the gay community.

R:  YouÕre not?

M:  I do belong, but I donÕt like go to the parades and stuff.

R:  Are most of your friends gay?

M:  Some of my closer friends are gay.  I have both gay and straight friends.

R:  You do have straight friends?

M:  Yeah.

R:  Do you feel more comfortable with your gay friends or your straight friends?

M:  I feel comfortable with both, I mean, IÕve told some of my straight friends that IÕm gay so itÕs comfortable.

R:  Now have you told your straight friends about your piss stuff?

M:  I donÕt wanna totally scare them off.

R:  So you think you would scare them off if you told them?

M:  I donÕt know for a fact, but I think that for many straight people, well many, of course, wouldnÕt accept weÕre being gay anyway, but water sports and scat for sure I think they would like uh....uhbleck!

R:  But youÕre sure they know youÕre gay though?

M:  Well not all of them.

R:  Oh they donÕt?

M:  Not all of them, but some of them do.

R:  Do they know at work?

M:  IÕm not completely out of the closet.  Some of the people at work know.  I donÕt know how many.  I thought it was public information in my office because I told a few people a couple of years ago, but some people seem not to know.  But the bottom line is, a number of New Yorkers do know that IÕm gay.

R:  But youÕre not totally out in your life?

M:  Office wise or otherwise, no.

R:  Do your parents know that youÕre gay?

M:  They subsequently passed away, but yes, they did know.

R:  They did know?

M:  At a certain time.

R:  Both of them are gone?

M:  Well my father more recently, but yeah.

R:  Did you have a good relationship with your parents?

M:  It was okay.  It was fine.

R:  Did you come out of the closet to them?

M:  After a period of time I told them.

R:  How old were you?

M:  Maybe in my 20s.

R:  And what did they say?

M:  They werenÕt pleased, you know, but itÕs not like these stories you hear where they throw you out of the house.  They accepted me.  TheyÕd rather it not be that way, obviously, but I never had any problems.

R:  Well letÕs go back to piss for a minute.  Like right now you have a wet spot on your jeans.

M:  Yeah.

R:  Has it ever happened and then afterwards youÕre talking to someone and they ask if you smell urine?

M:  No, thatÕs never happened.  Many times I do it in the house anyway.  When I do it in the street itÕs mostly out, you know, not in my pants.  Last night I did piss in my pants in the street, but it was raining though.  In the old days I used to like it better if it was raining, itÕs not as noticeable.  Now, if anything, I like it better if itÕs more noticeable.

R:  So you want people to notice that youÕve peed your pants?

M:  Yeah.

R:  Do you really want them to notice, or do you just want a certain segment of the community to notice?

M:  No, just people who might be more interested.  Gay people.

R:  So youÕre not an exhibitionist really or are you?

M:  To a degree I probably would be.

R:  You have no problem with your body being naked and things like that?  YouÕre very comfortable with your body?

M:   I guess so, I mean I wouldnÕt just take my clothes off in the street.  LetÕs put it this way, if I was at some gay hotel and they had a clothing optional policy, I wouldnÕt have any problem.

R:  You wouldnÕt?

M:  No.

R:  So piss is the main thing that youÕre into right?

M:  I still like to hug and to kiss and suck.

R:  Do you like to fuck?

M:  No.  I tell ya no one ever fucked me.

R:  Never?

M:  No.

R:  No oneÕs ever fucked you in your entire life?

M:  IÕll tell you why because no one was ever able to get in.  I mean I never opened wide enough I guess and the subject sort of dropped.  I used to meet people, you know casually, and sometimes people wanted to fuck but couldnÕt fit in.

R:  So they would try to fuck you and then they couldnÕt get in?

M:  Yeah, so that was it.  It never happened.  As far as the reverse, it does interest me to a degree in doing it.  I mean it feels differently, obviously.  I can vaguely picture something in Central Park maybe 20 years ago.  There was a guy a few times not too long ago, he used to let me enter him, but he didnÕt want me to cum in him.

R:  Without a condom?

M:  Yeah.

R:  Was this pre- AIDS or post?

M:  This was in the last couple of years.

R:  And you didnÕt have any problems about fucking without a condom?  Did it concern you?

M:  Well I didnÕt cum.

R:  Are you negative or positive?

M:  Negative.  I just did a test a while ago, actually.

R:  You took a test even though youÕd never had anal sex?

M:  Yeah.

R:  You felt like you could have got it somewhere else?

M:  No, it was recommended.  I guess in the olden days they didnÕt know if it was anal, oral or whatever.  I took it once cause I was asked, but I mean not for my own internal reasons.  I had no reason to believe I was positive and I wasnÕt really interested in knowing, but for the record I have done it.  As far as I know I definitely still am negative.

R:  Well if you never had anal sex itÕs like 99.8% chance.

M:  From what I understand thatÕs mostly what it comes from.

R:  Now you would like to have anal sex, but it just doesnÕt work?

M:  Well, as far as someone cumming in me, IÕd say IÕd be leery, but no oneÕs been able to get to that point.

R:  No one could get in?

M:  And the subject hasnÕt come up in a while. So you know thatÕs it.  As far as the reverse, I mean in a way itÕs nice and I think about it, but I donÕt really pursue it or anything.

R:  So do you get into blow jobs?

M:  That I like.

R:  Do you get into it a lot or do you like it just okay?

M:  Depends on the person IÕm with.

R:  Do you like to suck or do you like to get sucked?

M:  More to get sucked.

R:  Would you say youÕre more of a top or not, do you think in those terms?

M:  I donÕt normally think in those terms, but if I did I would say top.

R:  Do you have a big dick?

M:  6 1/2 inches.

R:  So itÕs little bit above average?

M:  Most people seem to think itÕs big.  I donÕt know why.

R:  Most people say itÕs a big dick?

M:  But my rulerÕs not so accurate.  Seriously, people have told me that itÕs so big and everything.

R:  They said that to you?

M:  Yeah.

R:  Really?  But now do you like guys with big dicks or small dicks or do you care?

M:  ItÕs not a major concern.  I mean if itÕs very, very small I guess I wouldnÕt care for them much.

R:  A lot of times it seems that guys with smaller dicks are more concerned with penis size, and the people with bigger dicks say they donÕt really care about penis size.

M:  To me it doesnÕt really matter.

R:  Would you rather see a big dick pissing or a small dick pissing?

M:  Big are okay.

R:  So youÕd rather see a big dick pissing?  Now do you ever think itÕs odd that youÕre into your anus sometimes in terms of shitting, but you donÕt want anyone to really play with it?  Like fuck you or anything?

M:  Yeah, but theyÕre two separate things.  I donÕt even really associate them.

R:  Cause some people have told me, "Whenever I shit I get a hard on.  I wonder why that is, because I donÕt get into shitting or scat, but sometimes when I do shit I get a hard on."  People tell me that.

M:  Well itÕs a sexual zone, an erotic zone, so I guess thatÕs why.

R:  But you donÕt get a hard on when you take a shit?

M:  No.

R:  Are you a happy person?

M:  I would say so.

R:  What do you dislike about yourself?

M:  Nothing.  YouÕre not talking sexually?

R:  Anything, sexually or otherwise.

M:  Well, for religious reasons, IÕd rather not do things sexually, so thatÕs one thing.  Also IÕd like to lose some weight.  ItÕs not keepinÕ me up at night, I donÕt mean it like that.

R:  LetÕs talk about the religious thing for a minute, you said that for religious reasons you donÕt like to fool around?

M:  Yeah.

R:  What religious reasons?

M:  Because the Bible says not to.

R:  Do you go to church every Sunday?

M:  IÕm Jewish actually.  I go to services regularly.

R:  YouÕre a very religious person?

M:  Yeah.

R:  So do you feel like this dichotomy or struggle?

M:  Yeah, I do feel that way.  I donÕt think about it as much as I should or as much as others do, but I realize the situation.

R:  Can you tell me some of your basic religious beliefs?

M:  Belief in God and the world to come, reward and punishment.  The major beliefs.

R:  So do you believe youÕre going somewhere when you die?

M:  Oh yeah, thereÕs a next world.

R:  You believe in a next world?  You believe youÕre gonna be judged for the things youÕve done?

M:  Sure.

R:  And how do you think youÕll fare?

M:  ThatÕs a good question, hopefully IÕll fare all right.  I realize that I am gay, itÕs not like I chose it and stuff like that.  ItÕs not like some people say.

R:  So you believe you were born gay?

M:  I donÕt know about being born gay, but I know I was gay at a very early age.  And it certainly was not a choice.  I donÕt know if itÕs from genealogy but itÕs certainly not a conscious choice.  Do I wanna take Pepsi or do I wanna take Coke, I mean obviously it doesnÕt work that way.  People who believe that are really way off.  But this is the way IÕve always felt, this is basically me.  IÕve gone into therapy to try to change.

R:  Try to change your sexuality?

M:  Yeah, which never worked and IÕm not interested in doing that again.

R:  Did you talk to your therapist about your pissing fantasies?

M:  It never really came up because that wasnÕt the issue.

R:  But donÕt you think the pissing thing is like a big thing in your life?  Like donÕt you think itÕs like a major piece of your life puzzle?

M:  It could very well be, I mean itÕs certainly something IÕm interested in.  I mean any time I see a picture that looks like someone is pissing I look twice.  So I guess...

R:  But how could you go to therapy and not discuss that?

M:  Because it was about my general orientation not specifics.  And obviously they didnÕt ask me, cause if they had asked me, I would have told them.

R:  But do you associate pissing with being gay or do you associate pissing with being sexual?

M:  Gay I would say.

R:  So if you were to have changed your sexuality when you were in therapy...

M:   I would change my designs.

R:  You would have stopped pissing?

M:  I never thought of that before, but now that you mention it.  LetÕs put it this way, if I think of pissing, IÕm gonna think of pissing with a guy.

R:  While you were in therapy were you still pissing?

M:  Yeah.

R:  You went to the therapist for the purpose of changing you sexuality, correct?

M:  Correct.

R:  So to go to a therapist to talk about changing your sexuality but not discuss the specifics of your sexuality, you donÕt find that kind of somehow off?

M:  Basically, the therapist asked all kinds of questions and I would answer the questions. And if there was anything I felt was amiss I would bring it to his attention.  But, pissing just didnÕt dawn upon me as something that was relevant to bring out.

R:  You donÕt think itÕs relevant?

M:  Well at the time I didnÕt.  Now that you bring up the subject and I think about it, maybe there is some relevance to it. ItÕs of a sexual nature I guess.

R:  I would think like for me, if I went to therapy to change my eating habits and what I didnÕt tell my therapist was that I eat three gallons of ice cream every night, and weÕre trying to get to the source of my eating problem...

M:  Yeah, I know...

R:  Somehow they fit together.

M:  I know, but thatÕs food.  This is sex.  I mean thereÕs sex and thereÕs piss.  I mean thereÕs a relationship, but I presumed the fellow wouldnÕt be interested in gay sex and presumably this would...

R:  Go away?

M:  Maybe.   I donÕt know, up until this point I never thought about it.

R:  Did you ever think IÕm gonna stop liking men, then IÕm no longer gonna be involved, and then IÕm not gonna fantasize about piss any more?

M:  I was just thinking about sex, really, the desires and thoughts.

R:  But you wanted to become a heterosexual?  You wanted to find a woman and settle down?

M:  Yeah, for religious reasons basically.  But that didnÕt materialize.

R:  But itÕs what you wanted?

M:  Yes.  I wanted to change my desires.

R:  So you wanted to actually desire women or you wanted to just stop desiring men?

M:  Well, the full circle, to desire women.

R:  To desire women?

M:  In lue of men.  Yeah.

R:  And did you ever think IÕm gonna find a woman and what is she gonna say when she finds out IÕm pissing in the house?

M:  What I would have thought is that I would have been interested in her instead of interested in others, and similarly I wouldnÕt be interested in piss.

R:  Did you think it was realistic at the time that you were going through therapy to change?

M:  At that time, yes.  At this time, no.

R:  How long were you in therapy?

M:  I went to several different therapists over a period of time.

R:  Like one year or ten years?

M:  No, not that long.  The main one I went to was maybe once a week for a year or something.

R:  Uh huh, and then how many years were you totally in therapy with the goal of changing your sexuality?

M:  I think all totaled it was two years.  The rest was scattered, I mean, a few other people.

R:  During any of these two years did you stop having sexual activity at all?  Was there ever like a six month period where you started to date women?

M:  I didnÕt stop being involved with men.  I did, itÕs a whole other topic, actually get married in the interim.

R:  In that two year period?

M:  No prior to that time actually.

R:  When did you get married?

M:  A while ago.  Twenty years.

R:  You got married twenty years ago?  So you got married before you went into therapy?

M:  Correct.

R:  So what did the pissing do when you were married?  Were you pissing in your pants still when you were married?

M:  No, I mean certainly not when she was around.  LetÕs put it this way, how could I explain it to her.  Occasionally I used to do it, I donÕt know how I managed it though, it was really something.

R:  So you have no idea how you would hide it from her?

M:  I used to go to the window and pee my pants, but I donÕt know how I hid it.

R:  Did you have sex with her?

M:  Yeah.

R:  Did you enjoy it?

M:  No.

R:  Not at all?

M:  No.

R:  Did she enjoy it?

M:  To some degree at least.

R:  What would you guys do together?

M:  This and that.

R:  Would you suck her tits?

M:  No.

R:  You wouldnÕt?  Would you kiss?

M:  When necessary.

R:  But you really didnÕt like it?

M:  No.

R:  Did she suck your dick?

M:  No, she wouldnÕt.

R:  She wouldnÕt suck your dick?

M:  No.

R:  Did you want her to?

M:  I was just gonna say, yeah, but itÕs not something that would particularly interest me.

R:  Having her suck your dick?

M:  Yeah.

R:  So you would just fuck her and that was it?

M:  Yeah.

R:  Did you have sex frequently?

M:  Somewhat frequently.

R:  Did you have romance?

M:  I liked her as a person, but not sexually.

R:  Would you hold her when you guys slept together? Was there affection?

M:  There was caring, I mean if I wasnÕt interested, I wouldnÕt have gotten married and obviously she was interested as well.

R:  So how did this marriage come about?  Where did you meet her?  Did you meet her at work, did you meet her on the street?

M:  A couple we knew introduced us.

R:  So was it love at first sight?

M:  I was dating before, too, this wasnÕt like the first time I went on a date or anything.

R:  You were dating women before?

M:  Yes.

R:  Were you dating men at the same time too?

M:  Seeing, but not seeing.

R:  You were dating women and you were seeing men on the side?

M:  Yeah.

R:  So you were like seeing the entire city?

M:  Yeah.

R:  You were fooling around with everybody.

M:  Well I didnÕt do anything with women, though.

R:  You didnÕt.  When you were dating women you didnÕt fool around with them?

M:  No, not at all.

R:  What did you guys do, just go to movies and go home?

M:  Or whatever.

R:  Did they think you were a gentleman or did they think that you didnÕt wanna have sex with them?

M:  No, no, no, they didnÕt think anything of it.

R:  So did you have sex with women before you married?

M:  No.

R:  You didnÕt?  Did you have a Jewish wedding?

M:  Yeah.

R:  Was it fun?

M:  ItÕs hard to say, I mean generally these kind of affairs are fun.

R:  Were you afraid of it?

M:  I donÕt believe I was frightened, maybe a little nervous.

R:  Did you believe on your wedding day, "I canÕt believe IÕm going to commit to this lie!" Or did you believe IÕm a heterosexual male and IÕm getting married."

M:  Neither.  I thought I would change.

R:  You thought once you married her, you would grow to love her and you would stop loving men?

M:  Yeah.

R:  How close to your wedding day did you fool around with a man?  Like three days before, two days before, two days after?

M:  Unfortunately I canÕt really tell you because I really donÕt remember.  I would assume as far as the before part that it wasnÕt that much before.  I was all excited about getting married, getting an apartment, getting furniture and making arrangements and all these other kind of things.  So in general, you know, if youÕre busy with one thing then it gets your mind off other things.  DoesnÕt mean the desireÕs not there.  So I would guess, before the marriage was a while, how long a while I really canÕt say.  After the marriage, probably somewhat of a while also, but I really donÕt know everything is relative.  Weeks, a month.  IÕm just guessing, I really donÕt know.

R:  But not a year?

M:  I would say for sure, no way a year.

R:  No way a year?

M:  No.  Knowing me, no.  No way a year.

R:  So would you sneak off to find guys to fool around with?

M:  Yeah.

R:  Where would you find them?

M:  Well one of the things I used to do was go to subway stations, the bathrooms there.  Nowadays virtually none of them are open, but in those days, at lunch time or after work, I used to stop off there.

R:  Did she ever suspect that you were fooling around with guys on the side?

M:  Yeah.

R:  She would accuse you?

M:  Not initially.  Actually I told her after we were married for a while that I was gay.

R:  What did she say?

M:  She was in shock but afterwards I guess she realized thatÕs why I was always cold. I  did meet the minimum requirements, I mean I kissed her and stuff like that.  But if I was with a guy, I just would stay there for a while.

R:  How long were you married?

M:  Well technically weÕre separated and not actually divorced yet, although IÕve been on my own for a while.

R:  How long?

M:  About ten years.

R:  YouÕve been on your own for ten years, so you were married for how long?

M:  About ten years.

R:  You were in the marriage for ten years?

M:  Yeah.

R:  You lived with her for ten years?

M:  Yeah.

R:  And when did you tell her you were gay?

M:  After a year and a half.

R:  And you still stayed in the marriage for ten more years?

M:  ThatÕs when I went into therapy for the first time.

R:  So why did you go to therapy?  For you, for her, for the marriage?

M:  For the marriage.

R:  Did you really care that much?

M:  Well it was a very sad thing you know when I first told her.  The only reason I told her by the way was because she was not yet pregnant.  I didnÕt have relations with her.  I tried, but I couldnÕt.  I wasnÕt interested.

R:  You didnÕt get a hard on?

M:  Or if I did thatÕs as far as it went.  I couldnÕt ejaculate in her.  So I got nowhere fast.  She started to wonder if it was her.  She wanted to go to a doctor to check herself out.  IÕm thinking, how could I let her do this when I know full well that it was me.  So I felt I had to tell her.

R:  Wait, she wanted to go to the doctor and get herself checked out because you...?

M:  Cause she thought maybe she was not able to have children.  In other words the point...

R:  Would you fake orgasms?

M:  According to what I heard, half of all women are not aware of when a man has an orgasm.  ThatÕs what I read someplace.

R:  So you would never have an orgasm?

M:  No.  I never did.  I mean thatÕs what IÕm saying.  I knew that she couldnÕt possibly be pregnant.

R:  When did you finish the sex?

M:  It depended.

R:  So you did fake your orgasms?

M:  Yeah.

R:  So youÕre faking orgasms with this woman, and so she doesnÕt know why sheÕs not getting pregnant?

M:  Right.  Then I told her, I couldnÕt just let her go on.

R:  So she wants to go to the hospital and say, why am I not getting pregnant?  ThereÕs something medically wrong with me?

M:  Right, absolutely.

R:  Little does she know that the reason that sheÕs not pregnant is because youÕre not ejaculating.

M:  But half of all women according to what I read someplace, not gay I mean, just in general, half of all women donÕt know when their husbands ejaculate.

R:  Do you think a lot of men fake orgasms?

M:  I have no idea, itÕs not something I discuss with people.

R:  I mean as a gay man, I think itÕs great to be able to fake orgasm.

M:  Sometimes I do it over the.  If like some friend calls and IÕm not specifically interested sometimes IÕll tell them IÕm busy, but sometimes itÕs not that easy to get out of it, you know, but this is over the phone, this isnÕt in person.

R:  Do you have phone sex a lot?

M:  Occasionally, I donÕt really care for it.  I like the real thing.

R:  Do you talk about piss on the phone?

M:  If itÕs the people who are interested I would.

R:  Going back to your wife, how did you tell her you were gay?

M:  Well, it didnÕt come out in two seconds.  It was very difficult to tell her, obviously, itÕs not just telling anybody, you know?

R:  Did you ever consider going through the process of going to the doctor, or did you tell her the truth right away?

M:  Right away, I felt I couldnÕt let her do that.

R:  So you told her you were gay?

M:  Yeah.

R:  And then she flipped out.  Did she send you to therapy?  Or you volunteered?

M:  She strongly recommended it.

R:  So it wasnÕt that you said, "Honey IÕm gay and I want to go to therapy?"

M:  No, it was her.  I didnÕt suggest the therapy.  I never suggested therapy for myself.

R:  You did it all for her?

M:  Yeah.

R:  So you loved her?

M:  Not sexually.

R:  But you cared about her?

M:  Yes.

R:  You cared about the marriage?

M:  Yeah.

R:  But did you want to change for her, or did you want to change because you really wanted to become a heterosexual?

M:   No, I went there sincerely to really try to affect a change.

R:  And your therapist told you, "Yes I can change you."

M:  He didnÕt really say that, but he apparently felt that he could try.  Somebody recommended this particular therapist.

R:  Had he cured other people?

M:  I donÕt know.

R:  He didnÕt tell you, "IÕve cured five people of their homosexuality in the last ten years?"

M:  He never said such a thing.

R:  Cause sometimes they specialize in curing people.

M:  I heard about these kinds of things.

R:  When I told the person at my church that I was gay they gave me a book on how to be straight.  One of the things the book said is you should play sports and get involved in really masculine activities cause your body will start to become heterosexual.

M:  ThatÕs interesting.  IÕm not interested in sports.  There are gay people and gay sports.

R:  ThatÕs the irony.  I could join the gay softball league.

M:  Yeah, but IÕm personally not interested.  I remember when I used to go to camp, we used to be so glad when it was raining because we had indoor activities.

R:  So you were gay your whole life?

M:  Yeah.

R:  Do you feel like you deceived your wife?

M:  SheÕs mentioned that to me and IÕve apologized to her.  I mean I certainly didnÕt mean to do that.  I donÕt wanna hurt people.  Call me naive or whatever, but not deceitful.

R:  Did she know about your pissing activities?

M:  To this day no.

R:  She has no idea?

M:  As far as I know, no.  I didnÕt wanna make things worse.

R:  Do you think she would have flipped out?

M:  Probably.

R:  Did your parents know about your pissing activities?

M:  Well my mother did because she found my pants once when I was younger.

R:  Did she put it together that this was going to be a lifetime activity for you, or did she think you had an accident?

M:  I donÕt think she blew it out of proportion or anything.

R:  Did you lose a lot of friends when you left your wife?

M:  No, not really, I mean we each knew different people, some people we knew separately at work or whatever.  Some people we knew in common and basically weÕre still close to them.  Nobody stopped talking to me or anything like that.

R:  But you were in therapy a year and a half into the relationship and you were in therapy for about two years.

M:  Well not all of that time.

R:  IÕm trying to figure out what you did for ten years in a marriage.

M:  I stopped the therapy after a while.  The therapist told me because I couldnÕt consummate my marriage by thinking about my wife, I should think about men.  And she became pregnant.

R:  So you would fuck her and you would picture men?

M:  That was the only way I could do it.

R:  And then she became pregnant?

M:  Yeah.

R:  And this happened after you told her you were gay?

M:  Yes, after I was in therapy.  And then I guess she and the therapist thought, aha, I changed or whatever.

R:  You never told her you were fantasizing about men?

M:  I donÕt know if I ever told her that or not.

R:  So you have a child?

M:  Four.  ThatÕs number one, but over a period of time.

R:  You have four children?

M:  Yeah.

R:  With this woman?  All conceived with you thinking about men?

M:  Yeah.

R:  Do your children know that youÕre gay?

M:  The older two do.

R:  The younger two do not know?

M:  Not yet, not to my knowledge.  I mean IÕd rather them find out from me than from her.

R:  Is your ex-wife...do you call her your ex-wife?

M:  No.

R:  You call her your wife?

M:  Yeah, well weÕre still married technically.

R:  But youÕre not really married cause you donÕt really live together.

M:  WeÕre not divorced.

R:  But you donÕt live together.  You donÕt talk every day...or do you?

M:  We talk frequently.

R:  You do talk frequently?

M:  Yeah.

R:  So you are involved in your childrenÕs lives?

M:  Yeah.

R:  Do you consider yourself a gay man, or do you consider yourself a sexual man?

M:  Oh gay.

R:  You consider yourself gay?

M:  If I had to fill out or check a box, yeah.  One therapist I went to said that since I had relations with Jill that IÕm not really gay IÕm bi.  And I said, "No, no, no IÕm not bi, I know what the difference is."

R:  You have four children?

M:  Yeah.

R:  Did you want to have four children?

M:  Yeah, I wanted children.

R:  So you were relieved when you finally came inside of her?

M:  Yeah.  I mean I tried to do it with her the first night, but nothing happened.

R:  Was she excited that she was pregnant?

M:  Oh yes, she wanted to have children also.

R:  She thought you had changed?

M:  Yeah.

R:  She believed you had changed?

M:  I had to keep reassuring her.

R:  And youÕre still out fooling around with men?

M:  Yeah.

R:  YouÕre still sneaking off while sheÕs pregnant or what?  While the kids are being born, youÕre going off and youÕre fooling around with men all the time?

M:  As often as possible.

R:  Did you ever bring anything home like crabs or gonorrhea?

M:  No, never.

R:  Were you worried about that?

M:  I did think about it.  ThatÕs why, by the way I had the AIDS test, that ties into the other comment.  You know for her sake, not for my sake.

R:  When did you have the AIDS test?

M:  After the last of the children was born.

R:  You did it for her?

M:  Yeah.

R:  Is she in love with you?

M:  Is she, present tense?  She has feelings for me I guess to some degree.

R:  Was she in love with you?

M:  Was she?  I would say, yes.

R:  This woman was really into you.

M:  I donÕt know if IÕd go that far.

R:  She doesnÕt hate you?

M:  No, she was very angry at the time.  When I told her it was more shock initially.  But at the time the separation and all that, it was more the anger than the shock.

R:  How do you stay in a relationship ten years and explore your pissing activities?

M:  It wasnÕt as much as it is now. And itÕs not always in my pants, you know, thereÕs outside, too.  Sometimes I go to piss in the subway station.

R:  Would her pissing turn you on?

M:  Oh no.

R:  What about, this is a very private question, what about your children?  Would you watch them piss and would that be a turn on at any level?

M:  No.

R:  Do you have all sons or just daughters?

M:  Both.

R:  But it wasnÕt like watching the sons pee turned you on and watching the girls did not?

M:  No.

R:  The whole kid thing was never an issue?

M:  Right.

R:  Did she ever suspect that you were into pissing?

M:  As far as I know, no.

R:  Is masturbation important to you?

M:  ItÕs nice.

R:  Do you masturbate a lot?

M:  Occasionally.  IÕd rather be with somebody else actually.

R:  You would?  Would you masturbate at the house, when you had the kids and her?

M:  If nobody was looking, you know, in the bathroom or whatever.

R:  Did you ever get caught masturbating?

M:  No.

R:  Never?

M:  Never.

R:  How would you sneak off?

M:  IÕd take off early from work and I go around in one of these various places.

R:  Did she ever call you at work when you werenÕt there, and they said that you took off early today?  And she wondered where you were?

M:  I donÕt know about that specifically.  But sometimes I came home later from work and say it was because of a subway delay.

R:  Did she believe you?

M:  Up to a certain point, and then afterwards everything sort of fit into place very well.  I donÕt know how long she believed it.

R:  Do you feel like youÕve done a shitty thing in your life?  Do you feel like, cause you talked about your religious beliefs earlier, do you think you lived a very shitty lie and hurt a lot of people?

M:  EveryoneÕs responsible for their own actions, thatÕs the bottom line.  I did what I thought was right, I tried to get married and I thought I would change.  I really believed that. So if it comes out as deception, I didnÕt mean it that way.  If I had told anyone, not just her, anyone that I was gay, presumably the person would just walk away and say forget about it, I donÕt wanna marry someone whoÕs gay.  But I thought at the time, maybe marriage would change me.  So I got married.  Obviously it came out that I did deceive her in that sense and I apologized to her numerous times about it.

R:  Did you think you were deceiving her by I sneaking off on your lunch hour, you were coming home late and lying?  It wasnÕt like you were having thoughts about men that you did not pursue.

M:   I did pursue them.

R:  You were actively living a double life.

M:  Yeah.

R:  Do you feel like the God that you believe in, IÕm not sure exactly, totally, how you define that God, but the God that you believe in, do you think HeÕd rather have you try to change and end up in the process deceiving people or hurting people, or do you think He would rather have you not live a lie

M:    Maybe in retrospect, I shouldnÕt have pursued marriage to begin with, I canÕt say a hundred percent.  Since I was gay, I am gay, and as it turns out I was not able to stop myself from doing these things,  in retrospect perhaps I shouldnÕt have gotten married.  I still have to say perhaps, not a hundred percent.

R:  But do you think God thinks that it was noble of you to try to change?

M:  To try to change, yeah.  Not that deception is permitted.  I donÕt mean to put it that way either.

R:  So the God that is in your life has what views on homosexuality?

M:  That itÕs not permitted to do these kind of things.

R:  So you believe that you will be not allowed to be in His world?

M:  Well everyone, I believe gets judged for all of his or her actions throughout the course of oneÕs lifetime.  So no oneÕs a hundred percent perfect, no oneÕs a hundred percent terrible.  So the whole thing is weighed and wherever you come up in the scales thatÕs where youÕll wind up.

R:  How badly will homosexuality tilt those scales against you?

M:  We donÕt know, the Bible doesnÕt  say on a scale of one to ten.

R:  What does your gut tell you?

M:  ItÕs a major problem.  But by the same token, IÕm doing other positive things, including having the children.

R:  That was a positive thing?

M:  Yeah.

R:  You raised them well?

M:  TheyÕre nice religious people.

R:  You took care of them?

M:  I tried.

R:  Do you feel like by raising kids and having them turn out religious makes up for your...?

M:  I didnÕt do it to make up for anything.

R:  I know, but in your mind do you feel like, "I have four kids and theyÕre all religious, so that lessens my homosexuality?"  Cause you talked about balance between good and bad things.

M:  Everything comes into play.  ItÕs one of a million different factors.

R:  But what IÕm really concerned about is what you believe is going to happen to you.  Because I think a lot of people that believe in God, believe that He thinks homosexuality is okay. But you are a fascinating person because you have embraced and accepted your homosexuality, and you are still religious and you want God to embrace you, yet you think homosexuality  is right, but wrong in His eyes.

M:  No, no, I would say homosexuality is wrong.  I didnÕt say it was right.

R:  You think homosexuality is wrong?

M:  Yeah.

R:  But youÕve embraced it?

M:  But like I said before, itÕs not a choice, do I want Coke or Pepsi?  For better or worse, itÕs the way I am.  I mean on a scale of one to ten, if ten is gay, IÕm a ten.  ThereÕs no question.

R:  You donÕt believe you can change your homosexuality, and yet you believe that itÕs wrong?

M:  ItÕs a very hard topic, but I certainly know I didnÕt choose being gay, thereÕs no question.

R:  So how can it be wrong if you didnÕt choose it?

M:  To be, is certainly not a problem, to do is the only question.  I mean just to be gay I donÕt see that as a problem.

R: And you donÕt think God thinks itÕs a problem?

M:  Correct.

R:  So God looks down on you, not for the fact that youÕre gay, but because you act on your gay desires?

M:  Yeah.  I mean what if somebody is, I donÕt know what to say, prone to ...I donÕt know.   ItÕs in a class by itself.  ItÕs hard to equate with anything else, really.  But if somebody is prone ... You donÕt choose being homosexual, but you choose to have homosexual activities.  Even though to be very frank, many times thereÕs almost no choice.  I mean if you see someone who looks interesting, not to look at the person or all these other kinds of stuff, I mean itÕs hard.

R:  So when you have sex with a man, you feel like youÕve committed a sin?

M:  Yeah.

R:  And how much do you beat yourself up over it?

M:  Not too much, frankly.

R:  But you do think youÕre committing a sin?

M:  Yeah.

R:  So how much inner conflict are you building?

M:  Not as much as it might come out to sound.

R:  But how important is it to you to be accepted by God?

M:  Very important.  ItÕs the only thing of importance.

R:  But do you or donÕt you believe that your sexual activities are going to keep you from being accepted by God?

M:  I donÕt know if it will keep me, but it will certainly factor.  ItÕs not my decision.

R:  But you must have an opinion.

M:  I would think and hope that other things that I do in life will make up for this, if I should be so blunt and modest.

R:  Do you believe that or is that the rationality that you use to try to deal with it?

M:  ItÕs not a rationale.  The point is it would certainly be worse, the way I see it, if I engaged in homosexual activities and did not do anything positive.  In other words, not to give charity and not to pray and not to be observant other ways and not to hold the door for people, you know, and all these other kinds of things.  So that does make a difference.

R:  So do you wear a yamika?

M:  I have one in my pocket at all times, but I donÕt wear it all day long.

R:  Would you feel bad going into a gay store wearing a yamika?

M:  I wouldnÕt wear one, so I wouldnÕt feel bad.

R:  Why wouldnÕt you do it?

M:  Well it depends what you define as a gay store, you mean like an X rated store, or something?

R:  The porno theater.  You wouldnÕt wear a yamika in a porno theater?

M:  No. If IÕm wearing the yamika it looks like IÕm a person whoÕs whole entire life is committed.

R:  So youÕre worried about what people in the thing are going to think of you, not youÕre going to disgrace God by wearing the yamika into a porno theater?

M:  No, I would be disgracing God.

R:  Cause God would not want you to identify yourself as a Jewish man if youÕre in a place like that?

M:  He knows anyway.  I mean this is not fooling Him obviously.

R:  Do you live with a lot of pain?

M:  No.

R:  You donÕt?  YouÕre pretty happy?

M:  Yeah.  ItÕs a dilemma, but if people asked me, I would say happy.  Happy and gay.

R:  What do you think God thinks about your pissing activities?

M:  My answer would be not anywhere near as serious as sexual activities.  ThereÕs no prohibition about pissing in your pants.  Of course it would cause embarrassment if people found out, but I mean it wouldnÕt bother me.

R:  But youÕre turned on by pissing, itÕs a sexual activity for you.

M:  I know but what it is for me doesnÕt matter.  I mean if itÕs not proscribed specifically.

R:  So because God hasnÕt talked about pissing or scat itÕs not a problem?

M:  Yeah.

R:  Is having gay thoughts as bad as actually having the gay sex?

M:  Gay thoughts are a problem.

R:  But when youÕre pissing youÕre having gay thoughts?

M:  Not necessarily sexual thoughts.  Well yeah it would be thinking of someone gay who looks interesting.  So yeah, it that sense, yes.

R:  Do you think youÕll ever try to change again?

M:  Well, I try to limit my sexual activities, but as far as actually trying to change, I donÕt really know thereÕs a way to change.

R:  What do you mean by limit your sexual activities?

M:  LetÕs assume I wanna have sex with someone three times a day.  So instead I have sex letÕs say, twice a week.

R:  Twice a week?

M:  Yeah, something like that.  IÕm just throwing out figures.

R:  I know.  So God would prefer that you have sex one time a week as opposed to four times a week?

M:  Yeah.

R:  So if you could push a button tomorrow or take some pill and it would make you never want to have sex with another man, never want to piss again, would you take that pill?

M:  I had a therapist once who asked me the same question.  And IÕll give you the same answer I gave him.  The answer would be yes, but the answer is probably start crying cause IÕll miss it.  Of course then I wouldnÕt miss it, but as of this second, this side of that hill, I would miss it.

R:  Do you wash your hands after you pee or not?

M: Yeah.  ItÕs for religious reasons, actually.

R:  Oh it is?  Tell me.  Tell me.

M:  On various occasions you have to wash your hands, and this is one of those occasions.

R:  But youÕre not Kosher?

M:  Oh yeah.

R:  You keep Kosher?

M:  Yeah.

R:  So youÕre very religious.  What other religious things do you do that are what you would consider wrong?  What other religious principals do you not follow that you should?

M:  Nothing to my knowledge.

R:  So itÕs just gay?

M:  Not purposely or knowingly or whatever.  I mean it doesnÕt mean I donÕt make mistakes.

R:  Do you speak Yiddish?

M:  Slightly, I never learned it.  But to a degree.

R:  Is there a Yiddish word for homosexuality?

M:  YouÕre talking about Yiddish as opposed to Hebrew?

R:  How do you say homosexuality in Hebrew?

M:  Uh, the only word that I know is homosexual, thereÕs no word thatÕs made for it, thereÕs no generic Hebrew word for .

R:  What if two people are speaking Yiddish, and they want to describe somebody who was gay.  Would they say he was a fruitcake, is there like a Yiddish word fruitcake that everyone would understand?

M:  There is a slang word.  Fagalo or fagala.

R:  Oh, of course, fagala!  But thatÕs very disrespectful, right?

M:  ThatÕs a slang, thatÕs not an official word that people would use.

R:  ItÕs interesting.  So how many Jewish friends do you have that know about you?

M:  Not a great deal.

R:  Do you go to services?

M:  Yeah.  Every day.

R:  So what is the stance on homosexuality, officially, in the religion?

M:  Officially?

R:  ItÕs okay to be gay, just donÕt do it?

M:  Well the Bible itself says that one shouldnÕt lay with a man like with a woman.

R:  But can you stretch that, "well I lay down and have sex with my wife, but if I stand up and a guy gives me a blow job thatÕs not the same thing?"  Can you stretch that or not?

M:  Not really, no. The only thing that many interpret it to mean is that the Biblical prohibition is anal.  Anal is considered the main problem, religiously.

R:  Do you feel like you did a good thing by getting married, that you followed the commandment?

M:  ThatÕs the only reason I got married.  I didnÕt do it for personal.

R:  Oh you did not do it for any personal reason, you did it strictly to follow the commandment?

M:  Yeah.

R:  I thought you did it because you were hoping you would change and become heterosexual and you wanted to live that lifestyle.

M:  ThatÕs only for religious reasons, not for personal reasons.

R:  Oh, I thought it was because you were hoping that...

M:  I expected to change, but I mean thatÕs only a...

R:  So you kind of did it to check off a check list of things you have to accomplish in your life?

M:  I donÕt have such a list.  I mean there are things that one is supposed to do, but itÕs not quantified.  ItÕs not like one shall hold the door for two hundred people in oneÕs lifetime.

R:  ItÕs not a set rule.

M:  It depends on the circumstances.

R:  Is it better to get married even though youÕre not into the woman, or is it better if youÕre not into the woman to not get married?  WhatÕs better in GodÕs eyes?

M:  I would say probably better to get married.  Even if youÕre not into her.

R:  YouÕre just doing it because youÕre following GodÕs commandments?

M:  Then itÕs still a good deed.

R:  ItÕs still good?

M:  Yeah.  Ideally you should love the person.  I mean thatÕs the ideal kind of situation.

R:  Your whole view is fascinating.  I donÕt share that idea about marriage, but IÕm the opposite, I would never get married period.  A lot of gay men want to get married and have these ceremonies, I would never do that.

M:  Well I would oppose that also, I mean there is no such, as far I know the story.

R:  ThatÕs a whole other debate.  But youÕre not filled with conflict and thatÕs fine.

M:  ItÕs not that I donÕt have any conflict.

R:  But youÕre not like suicidal.

M:  I donÕt know what to say.  Yeah.  I was almost ready to use that word.  But I donÕt want to be that blunt, but yeah.

R:  You donÕt have sex with men and then want to kill yourself?

M:  Correct.

R:  When will you have sex with men next?

M:  LetÕs see...uh...

R:  When you leave here will you go looking for sex?

M:  No.  I mean if I saw someone interesting in the street, and that person was interested in me, knowing me I could very well invite him to come to my house and have sex with him.

R:  So will you ever divorce your wife?

M:  If she pursues it I would.

R:  Why hasnÕt it been pursued?

M:  She not interested in marrying someone else.

R:  She wants to stay married to you?

M:   In a way I think she would really like things to work out with us.

R:  She would?

M:  Yeah, but itÕs hard.  ItÕs less likely.

R:  Excuse me, less likely, or not a chance in hell?

M:  Well thatÕs less likely.

R:  No, less likely is, well....

L;  No, but, maybe I should be a little more blunt.  But itÕs far less likely.

R:  ThereÕs no way in hell youÕre going back to her is basically right?

M:  Sometimes I think about it.

R:  You still think about it?

M:  On rare occasions.

R:  Do you think youÕll ever come to a point in your life where youÕre not having sex with men?

M:  The real answer, no.

R:  No.  So although maybe it was only five seconds, but when you thought maybe I will go back to my wife.

M:  I didnÕt say it was long, yeah.

R:  When you thought maybe I will go back to my wife, did you think that she wouldnÕt let you go out and sleep with men at the same time?  Or did you think maybe I will get with men and go back to her?

M:  The thought came up that maybe it would be better for the sake of the children.

R:  How young is the youngest one?

M:  Twelve.

R:  Seventeen, so you had them boom, boom, boom.

M:  Yeah relatively speaking.

R:  Was it exciting when they were born?

M:  Oh yeah.

R:  Do you love your kids?

M:  Oh yes.

R:  Do they love you?

M:  I believe so.

R:  Do they resent you, on any level do you think, for not being around, for not being in the house with their mother?

M:  I would say that they would have preferred it if things would have worked out.

R:  They would prefer it even though two of them know that youÕre gay?

M:  Maybe.

R:  What do they think about the fact that youÕre gay?  Do they think that daddy has a sickness?

M:  We havenÕt discussed this, I donÕt know.

R:  If your son came to you and said I think I may be gay as well what would you say to him?

M:  I wouldnÕt say go into therapy because I donÕt think it would accomplish anything. As far as moving in here and showing the ropes, I would wanna make myself available for any questions, comments, whatever, I mean by all means speak to me to see if I can help out.

R:  But would you encourage them to be gay or would you encourage them not to be gay or would you encourage them to do whatever they wanted to do?

M:  If youÕre asking me if I want any of my children to be gay, the answer is, no I would not.

R:  But if they came to you?

M:  But thatÕs another question.

R:  But if one came to you and said I am gay, thereÕs nothing you can do about it, you would accept them and say okay fine?

M:  Something along those lines.

R:  Would you harp on them to change?

M:  No, but to realize what the situation means religiously.

R:  What if they said, "I donÕt wanna go to service anymore, I donÕt care anything about the Jewish religion, I wanna move to Manhattan and be an interior decorator and have a good time as a gay man."  What would you say?

M:  Then I would have a long discussion and recommend therapy.

R:  What if they said fuck you?

M:  I would try to have some influence on them somehow.

R:  But you wouldnÕt cut that child out of your life?

M:  I would.

R:  You would?

M:  Yes.

R:  You would never see that child again?  If they turned their back on religion and became a happy homosexual living in the city?

M:  If they would not be religious, thatÕs correct.

R:  How can you justify that in your mind?

M:  Because theyÕre doing whatÕs improper and therefore itÕs like losing a child.

R:  If they say to you, "Dad, you live as a gay man yourself."  And you would say, "Yes but IÕm still religious so itÕs okay?"

M:  No, but at least IÕm trying.  You said if one of them would ask about giving up everything.

R:  What if they said this, "I like being religious and wearing a yamika and going to services, I like it.  But I also love being gay and I want to go to gay pride parades and I want to read gay magazines and hang out with only gay friends and I love my gay life?"  Then would you cut the child out?  What if they became a really active homosexual but they still kept their religious beliefs?

M:  I would want to speak to them about that.

R:  But you wouldnÕt cut them out of your life?

M:  Correct.  I mean I wouldnÕt approve if they decide to march in the gay pride parade.

R:  But you wouldnÕt turn your back on the child or cut him out of your life?

M:  Correct.

R:  But if they turned their back on religion you would?

M:  Yes.  ThatÕs what weÕre supposed to do.  If a person ceases to become religious, the person in effect has died.

R:  Okay let me ask you this?  What if your son comes to you in two or three years, and says, "Dad IÕm gay.  And I have this really bizarre sexual thing that I donÕt really understand.  IÕm really into pissing in my pants.  And IÕm really into watching guys piss at urinals."  What would you say to him?

M:  I have mixed reactions.  On the one had I guess IÕd feel sad, on the one hand I guess IÕd start smiling, thereÕs a whole variety of emotions.

R:  What if he said I found a guy and he pisses in my mouth and I really enjoy it?

M:  I think I would faint.

SCENE: PATRICK-30 PAGES

Academic-HIV positive-his lover has cancer-very intelligent-thoughtful

R:  Describe yourself in a general way so we can form a picture of you.

P:  I have my doctorate and I continue to hide in academia.  IÕm currently doing research on a book about gender issues in the eighteenth century.  I spend a lot of time on my work.

R:  And what do you look like?

P:  IÕm 5Õ9" trim, defined.  I think IÕm fortunate in that my legs are defined where most gay men only work their upper body.  IÕm clean shaven at this point, but I have had a mustache for a number of years.

R:  So for you not having a mustache is a new thing?

P:  This has been about four years now that itÕs completely clean shaven.  But I used to have a big walrus mustache that hung down over.

R:  Really?

P:  Yup.

R:  Do people see you now and theyÕre like, "What happened?"  People that knew you then.  Do they not recognize you?

P:  We started with just trimming it back and one day in trimming it, I didnÕt do such a good job and so off it went.

R:  Was it traumatic, losing it?

P:  No.  I was ready for it.

R:  You were?

P:  I grew it because I looked very young and I wanted to be older.  Then once I started being older I said, "All right, itÕs time to shave it."

R:  So instead of plastic surgery you just shave.

P:  Right.  I also stopped wearing my earring last year.

R:  So youÕre going through these subtle little changes.  How old are you?

P:  Thirty-three.

R:  Oh, yeah, youÕre young!  So you got your doctorate when you were like twelve?

P:  I completed my doctorate at twenty-nine.

R:  So youÕve always been welcome in the academic world?

P:  Yes.

R:  Are you openly gay?

P:  Yes.

R:  To everyone?

P:  Yup!

R:  How long have you been gay?

P:  ThatÕs a two piece question.  How long have I been gay?  My whole life.  But I came to that realization and acknowledged it at nineteen.

R:  Do you remember your first sexual thoughts about a man?

P:  Yeah, it was third grade.  I have a brother whoÕs nine years older then I am and I thought one of his friends was so cute.  I knew I always wanted to be around when he was around.

R:  Did you know that you wanted to fool around with him, sexually?

P:  That I hadnÕt pieced together yet, I didnÕt know what it meant.  I liked the fact that we could rough house and be a little rough and tumble, so there was a physical element to it.  But the sexual aspects of it didnÕt click with me.

R:  Did you see him naked?

P:  No.

R:  Was he the first one you really remember having this attraction to?

P:  ThatÕs the first that I really remember.  ItÕs possible that there was something before that but not that I really remember.

R:  Did you masturbate as a kid?

P:  Yes.

R:  Do you remember when you started doing that?

P:  I actually started masturbating before I could ejaculate.  Not realizing what I was doing, but it sure felt good.  It was wild that I would have an orgasm, but since nothing would come out, I could keep going.  I guess I was in about the fifth grade.

R:  Did you know it was a sexual act?

Rich :  No, I didnÕt.  I just enjoyed my body and one of the big family stories is as a little kid they could never keep clothes on me.  I was forever taking off my clothes and running around naked.

R:  Until when?

P:  It was until about kindergarten and one of the big stories is we were at my cousinÕs house for dinner, sheÕs a child psychologist, and I insisted on taking my clothes off and she said, "Well thatÕs quite all right, if he wants to eat dinner in the nude he can."  So there I was nude while we had dinner at my cousinÕs house.

R:  So are you an exhibitionist to this day?

P:  Yeah.

R;  You are?  Do you go to nudist colonies and things?

P:  I enjoy going to nude beaches.

R:  So youÕve always been really comfortable with your body?

P:  Yeah.

R:  Why are you happy with your body?

P:  I think that I was always comfortable with my body.  The fact that I was trim and in shape prevented me from having any insecurities about it.

R:  So you have no insecurities about your body at all?

P:  IÕm not in quite as good shape as I used to be, but in general IÕm comfortable with my body.  It doesnÕt phase me in the locker room to walk around nude.

R:  So youÕre comfortable with your penis size and everything?

P:  Yes.  Not that IÕm a size queen, but the first man that I really fooled around with had a very small penis which was nice because them I felt good about being average.

R:  Thank God for small penises!

P:  As a first experience I thought it was good.  Subsequently IÕve been with guys with very big cocks and others that are smaller than I am and all that really matters is where their mindÕs at and whether or not I enjoy it.

R:  Do you  have a preference?

P:  No.

R:  But youÕre happy with your dick?  You donÕt wish it was smaller, bigger, different, youÕre happy with it?

P:  Yeah.

R:  Do you think you being comfortable with your body sets you apart from other gay or straight men?

P:  I think a lot of American men are disconnected from their bodies.  I think America in general just isnÕt comfortable with the body.  While weÕre willing to let women reveal and show what they have, we donÕt really have that with men.

R:  Do you find that youÕre not inhibited about anything or is it just your body that youÕre comfortable with and you have insecurities about other things?

P:  It pretty much runs through out, IÕm always willing to try or do anything.  One of the things I did when I was going to graduate school was drive a cab, which people that know me from high school would think thatÕs so out of character for me but it was a sort of thing that I thought it would be fascinating to do so I did it.

R:  Was it fascinating?

P:  Yes.  I had a really good time.  It was tough because it was a twelve hour shift that started at four a.m. and went to four.  The cabs that I used to get because I was a new driver werenÕt very safe at all which made me a little uncomfortable about being behind the wheel.

R:  What do you mean unsafe?

P:  Bald tires, brakes that wouldnÕt necessarily grab.

R:  How long did you do this?

P:  A couple of months.

R:  Did you do it for money or did you just do it for fun?

P:  I thought I was going to be doing it for money, but it turned out that I really just did it for fun.

R:  Did you think it would be more money than it was?

P:  It was one of those things that at the end of the day IÕd have a wad of cash in my pocket but after paying for the rental of the cab, the gas, my lunch and all the other things, I wasnÕt taking home as much as I would have liked to considering I was working a twelve hour shift.

R:  Do have a career now?

P:  My life is structured.  I have a nine to five job in academia and I continue to do research and other projects along with that.

R:  So educationÕs very important to you?

P:  Uh huh.

R:  Do you have a lover?

P:  Yes.

R:  And how long have you been together?

P:  We formally started our relationship four years ago, but weÕve known each other as friends for ten years.  We met while I was involved with someone else and weÕd get together every six months just to catch up.  After I broke up with the person I was with, we got together and I was filling him in and all of a sudden I said, "Why donÕt we try going out?"  And it all evolved from there.

R:  So you were the aggressor?

P:  Uh huh.

R:  Are you always the aggressor?

P:  No!  It was easy to be the aggressor with him because he was shyer than I am.   When I would see him in a social setting he was very shy and quiet.  I always knew I could walk up to him and make some comment that would make him blush.  It was mostly formal occasions that I would see him on.  Now when I would go to bars I was always the one to let men come up to me.

R:  And would they always come up to you?

P:  Yes.

R:  YouÕve never had a problem finding dates or finding men?

P:  No, and I know that sounds conceited when I say that.  WhatÕs more ironic is that for years I always found tops when I wanted to find a bottom and everyoneÕs else is complaining that they only find bottoms.

R:  Do you feel like you are a unique gay man to the gay community because people come up to you?

P:  Yes, I feel that I.  I donÕt know if I worked through or had an easier time or didnÕt have some of the obstacles that other people have had and still havenÕt gotten over.  I think I was just very fortunate.

R:  Do you like your family?

P:  Members of my family, ha ha ha.

R:  Which members do you like and which do you dislike?

P:  IÕm the youngest of four.  My oldest brother is nine years older than I am.  He moved out when I was thirteen, he had finished college, got a job and moved to the west coast.  For the longest time I remained thirteen in his mind.  He would see me once a year when he came back for Christmas and there wasnÕt this sense of me growing up and getting older.  So there was always this odd relationship between the two of us and it wasnÕt really until after I graduated college and visited him with one of my boyfriends that he really was faced with my being a gay adult.  HeÕs not gay.  HeÕs comfortable with me being gay.

R:  So what happened when he was faced with it?

P:  Well his being faced with it was him accepting me as an adult not as a gay adult.  So it was realizing that I wasnÕt thirteen anymore and that I was trying to establish my own life.  It wasnÕt  any big confrontation it was more of an indication of me being in some new phase of my life.

R:  Have you always felt like your whole family has always treated you like the baby?

P:  Oh yeah.

R:  And you donÕt enjoy that?

P:  Well, I enjoyed it because I got away with a lot of stuff being the baby.  What I didnÕt enjoy was my middle brother always wanted to tag around with my older brother rather than me cause he wanted to be with the older kids.  I also donÕt enjoy that in a number of ways because I was the youngest not as much pressure was put on me to strive and achieve as the older child.

R:  Have you achieved the most?

P:  Yes, but that was on my own.

R:  So you found an inner drive to do that?

P:  Yes.

R:  So youÕve always been incredibly independant?

P:  Yeah.  Coming home from school I never had anything new to bring to the dinner table because everyone else had already done what I had done.  Continuing beyond my masters to get my doctorate was the first thing I did that the others didnÕt.

R:  Would you say you are much more intellectually inclined than your siblings?

P:  No.

R:  So you have a smart family?

P:  Uh huh.

R:  What did your dad do?

P:  He worked in international sales and we often had people from all over the world over for dinner.  He would be gone nine months out of the year traveling all over the world.

R:  Did you grow up in suburbia or the big city?

P:  Suburbia.

R:  Like big back yard, big front yard, all that stuff?

P:  Decent size front and back yard.  The backyard had a stream that ran through it and in the winter it would freeze and weÕd go ice skating on it down there.  WeÕd go sledding in the backyard and all that.

R:  Did you like growing up in that house?

P:   It was fine.  It was the only house that I had ever lived in until I moved out on my own.  My parents never moved.  So I only know that house.  I donÕt really have anything else to compare it to.

R:  Was it a happy house?

P:  Yeah.

R:  No, not full of dysfunction?

P:  Well, we had the alcoholic father and the controlling mother, but it was also one of those things with my father being gone so much, the extent of his drinking and it got worse as he got older and cut back on his traveling.  It wasnÕt pans being thrown or anything like that.

R:  But it wasnÕt total Utopia?

P:  No.  Not at all.

R:  Are your parents still alive?

P:  Yes.

R:  And are you close to them?

P:  No.

R:  Why are you not close to them?

P:  Because of my fatherÕs alcoholism and because of my motherÕs trying to control each of her childrenÕs lives.  Well whatÕs interesting is since all my siblings have children my parents relate to the grandchildren, but when they come to visit me we have to deal with each other, no hiding behind children.

R:  Do you want children?

P:  No and that was actually an issue between myself and the last girlfriend I had before I came out.  On paper she was everything I would have wanted in a wife, but I just didnÕt want to have children and didnÕt think I would be a good father.

R:  Why not?

P:  Now, I realize itÕs because IÕm too selfish, but then it was because I was too confused about myself.  I thought,  "How can I ever be a role model, how can I handle this?"  So I didnÕt want kids at all and she very much did.  ThatÕs what caused us to pause and take some time off.

R:  Not the fact that you were really homosexual?

P:  Well at that point I didnÕt realize it in myself.

R:  You didnÕt?  And how old were you?

P:  I was eighteen to nineteen.

R:  Have you matured and decided that you want a child or have you just accepted that you are selfish and you would never have a place for kids in your life?

P:  At times I would like to have a child but I think that wanting to do it to see what kind of contribution theyÕll make is in fact selfish.  I also know that right now I am not financially able to have a child.  The time isnÕt right now.

R:  What do you mean thatÕs the wrong reason to bring a child into the world?

P:  Well itÕs like playing with clay.  If you think youÕre going to have this child and shape their life as if itÕs a play toy, which I think people have children because they want their genetic material to live on.  They donÕt want to be that branch that stops on the family tree.  And other people I think have children because there is that whole aspect of shaping and controlling and molding them.  IÕm not sure that those are the conscious reasons that people get pregnant, but I think that those are some of the pieces why people are accepting or assume they are going to have a family.

R:  What do you think the right reason to bring a child into the world is?

P:  I know it sounds a little hokey, but it really being an expression of the union of two people.

R:  How does that benefit the child?

P:  How does that benefit the child?  It doesnÕt necessarily because they can still be fucked up.  I canÕt say I have quite thought through all of this.

R:  Do you think there is a right reason to bring a kid into the world?

P:  I really have never thought about why a couple should bring a child into the world.  I think that there are more children being born than should be born.  I donÕt know how it all fits in for me, IÕm feeling uncomfortable with it..

R:  Do you like all of your siblings?

P:  Do I like them?  Yeah, for the most part.

R:  Do you think they are all worthy of the air they take up?

P:  My middle brother and I have a strained relationship and he hasnÕt found a focus yet, even though I donÕt think he would say that.

R:  Why does that strain your relationship with him?

P:  Well itÕs hard for me to be supportive or be with him emotionally when I feel heÕs out in left field floundering a bit.

R:  So you donÕt feel comfortable with flounderers?

P:  Probably not.

R:  Do you think thatÕs a negative thing to be a flounderer?

P:  I think that there are periods in oneÕs life when you are naturally going to feel a little lost or feel a little unsure about things, but I think ultimately there have to be clear goals along the way and it isnÕt always just one goal.  There are multiple goals along the way.

R:  Why do you think there needs to be that?

P:  Because as you said, IÕm one of those neat and organized people who needs to know where IÕm going.

R:  I donÕt mean why you think that, I mean why do you think itÕs a good idea for people to have goals?

P:  If you donÕt have a goal or a clear direction, then what direction do you have?  I see a lot of people who have just stopped growing and really have more potential than they take advantage of.  There really is much more that they can be doing.  Having a doctorate at times is a little tough because people get defensive about their own lack of education, but their education has only stopped because they have chosen to let it stop.  It doesnÕt mean that you have to be in class to continue your education, but they have just stunted themselves.

R:  Do you look down on people that canÕt finish the college education that they have committed to?

P:  No!  Because their life may take another direction and having a college degree says that you completed something but it doesnÕt say that you have achieved something.  You could have a student that leaves college because thatÕs not the right time for them to be there and go back twenty years later to complete the degree or do research or write or make some contribution to society that they are able to do without the college degree.  I donÕt see the college degree in and of itself as being a real stamp.

R:  Is your doctorate an important part of your life or just one little thing that you did?

P:  I think itÕs one little thing I did in my life.  The day of my dissertation defense was scheduled for the first thing in the morning, and it actually was concluded earlier than the full time that was allotted.  So I went back to the office and had the usual weekly staff meeting that was coming up so I went into the staff meeting.  It was all a bit odd thinking well I did it, anyone can do it, if you just put your mind to it.  So all of a sudden it felt strange in that yes it was an accomplishment and it was something that I did but it was really something that anyone could do.

R:  Was it anti-climactic?

P:  At that moment, a little bit.  In speaking with other people, many have had similar feelings.  YouÕre then faced with, "Okay, I have the dissertation.  Do I actually move forward and try to publish something, do I just forget about it, what do I do with this?"  It was another year before I got my first article out.  It was one of those things I could talk about doing rather than doing it.

R:  You say youÕre in the world of academia now?

P:  Yes.

R:  What does that mean?  Do you teach or do you write?

P:  A major part of my job is advising students.

R:  Do you enjoy that?

P:  Yes.

R:  Do you feel like youÕre their parent?

P:  No!  I feel like IÕm the voice that will ask the questions their parents wonÕt or IÕm the one who wonÕt yell at them about something they did that their parents will yell at them over.

R:  How would you line up your life?  Go through like five levels of what you think is most important to you.

P:  I would like to believe that the bit I have contributed to the scholarly body is important and therefor would feel like that is a key element to me.  I canÕt think of five different pieces.  The fact that I am gay I feel is just part of my make-up along with my hazel eyes and these two bald patches that prevent me from growing a full goatee.  That has, of course, shaped and defined my life, but I donÕt feel that itÕs outside of my life.

R:  Are you into sports, are you athletic?

P:  Interestingly, I am interested in sports, but IÕm not interested in the sports that America is interested in.  My middle brother, the one that I donÕt get along with, was a big football star, big track star and I didnÕt have the natural coordination in those.  So growing up I felt disconnected from sports and didnÕt think that I had any athletic inclinations.  Once I got more involved in the gym and enjoying the physical limits I could push my own body to, I realized that I really do like athletics and physical activity.  I joined a wrestling club for awhile and really enjoyed wrestling, I just didnÕt have the time to devote to it that I needed to.  I very much enjoy playing squash.  I love to ski.  IÕm not a good swimmer in the sense of doing laps, but I really enjoy swimming in the water.  I think I enjoy the physicality of athletics.  IÕm not into the winning group mindset piece of it.

R:  Do you think the gay community is not really interested in athletics or do you feel like the gay community is getting more interested in athleticism?

P:  I think because we as gay people didnÕt realize it was in the realm of things that we could do so it was never thought of it as an option.  As younger gay teens are aware that you can go into sports, I think athletics will become more a part of the gay community.

R:  So letÕs go back.  You were in the fifth grade when you stated mastubating.  Do you remember the first time something came out after you masturbated?

P:  Yeah, it was probably a couple months after I started masturbating without having ejaculated.  At that point I hadnÕt had any sex education so I had no idea what this was.

R:  What did you think it was?

P:  I really had no idea.  It didnÕt freak me out or worry me by the fact that the sensation stopped when that came out, somehow I pieced together that this was some sort of process.  But what the process was, I didnÕt know at that point.

R:  But you didnÕt think, "Oh my God, my dickÕs going to fall off."

P:  No.

R:  Did you think what you were doing was right or wrong?

P:  Because I didnÕt know specifically what I was doing, there was no label.  I didnÕt have any thought about it.  Growing up no one ever said that masturbating was wrong so there was no sense of me doing something wrong.

R:  But you did it in private?  You didnÕt do it at the dinner table?

P:  No, I didnÕt do it at the dinner table.

R:  Although you did take your clothes off at the dinner table.

P:  Right, but that did stop when I was in kindergarten.

R:  Who stopped it?

P:  That I donÕt remember.  IÕm sure it must have been my parents, but I donÕt remember how that occurred.

R:  But you masturbated in private, so somehow you knew it was a private act.

P:  Well, I did it in private, because it was in private that I could be nude.

R:  Did you ever get caught?

P:  Yes, if I didnÕt lock the bathroom door occasionally someone would walk in, but being in the bathroom you could easily grab a towel.  There was one time during the summer, I had been out swimming and came in to change and was masturbating.  What I didnÕt realize was that my brother was watching me through the door and after I came and turned and I looked and saw him standing there, he very casually walked away, it wasnÕt as if he or I was startled.  I think I was even more excited knowing that someone had watched me.

R:  Do you think his reaction was odd?

P:  No.  Because I think he was probably as curious about things at that point.

R:  How old were you at that point?

P:  I was maybe twelve and he was about fifteen.

R:  Did you ever fool around with your brothers?

P:  No.

R:  Did you ever see them masturbating?

P:  No. I never did.

R:  Did you and you brother ever talk about that incident?

P:  No.  ItÕs a memory, but it isnÕt something that I think about it often.  I donÕt feel any need to confront him about it.

R:  Is the tension between you and your brother about your sexuality?

P:  No, not that I can really perceive.  ItÕs really about my feeling that he has no direction in his life.

R:  Why is that in any way your concern?

P:  Only because of this thing called family that puts pressure on me to interact with him.  If we were not brothers and I had only met this person, I donÕt think I would form a friendship with him.  But because there is this other layer that we have to be together in certain occasions, it certainly would be nicer if things were a little more relaxed.  He thinks that I donÕt give him enough credit.  And heÕs right.

R:  Are you one that gives unconditional love and support?

P:  It depends.

R:  It depends.  That doesnÕt sound very unconditional to me.

P:  It depends who it is.  By virtue of the fact that heÕs my brother, IÕm not sure why that person should get my unconditional love, verses the person that I am in a relationship with and that I have chosen to be with.  That person I do give unconditional love and support.

R:  If your lover said tomorrow, "IÕm going to live on the beach and collect shells for the next year" would you say, "LetÕs go."  Or would he not be the man for you anymore?

P:  First I canÕt imagine him ever saying that, but if he did I think it would be about figuring out why heÕs doing this and, of course, at some point I would go along with him.

ItÕs okay if that is the direction his life took because...

R:  You say direction his life took, I think that word is very important to you.  You donÕt seem very comfortable with IÕm going to go hang out for however long I want and no direction.

P:  No, I guess there are check points there.  If I said to him, "YouÕre going to the beach for a year, where is that leading?"  And if he said, "IÕm not really sure.  I just need the time to figure it out."  I would say, "Okay."

R:  Would you still want to be in a relationship with him?

P:  Sure.

R:  Why did you fall in love with him?

P:  Because heÕs very intelligent and very caring and warm and funny and handsome, um... and I just feel so incredible when I am with him.

R:  All the time?

P:  Pretty much.

R:  Would he say the same about you?

P:  This is my one insecurity here.  I always felt insecure with him because he really is so brilliant, and I used to think, "Oh my God, I canÕt keep up in a conversation with him.  Why does he want to hang around with me?  HeÕs seventeen years older than I am."  And...

R:  That would make him fifty.

P:  He was actually fifty-one earlier this month.

R:   .

P:  It was one of my friends that said you bring pieces to his life that he hasnÕt had and you push him in other directions.  It took me a while to relax and feel comfortable with that but I realize that we do each bring things to the relationship and itÕs okay that there are some areas where one of us is stronger than the other.

R:  What problems has it raised?

P:  The biggest problem was he had never had a long term relationship.  He had actually had very few relationships and had sort of shut that down and said he will never have a relationship and thatÕs the end of if.

R:  Was he like Mr. Anonymous Sex?

P:  No, not at all, as I said, heÕs on the shy side.  He would meet people somehow, usually work related and maybe date them for a couple months.  But it was usually a span of several years between each one of these and it was probably in his early to mid-forties the last time that he actually dated anyone at all and just decided that he just wasnÕt going to deal with this anymore.

R:  What about sex?

P:  He would masturbate on his own.

R:  He didnÕt go to sex clubs or any of that.

P:  No.  None of that stuff.

R:  Were you doing that stuff?

P:  I went to j.o. clubs.  I had gone to the rambles in the park when I first came to the city and was first coming out.  I never liked the whole tea room piece because I think I really saw that as being very sad and pathetic and I would much rather meet someone and know who I was having sex with, cause for me it wasnÕt just the orgasm.

R:  What sounded pathetic about it?

P:  I really viewed it as the group of people that grew up at the time when they needed to hide who they were.  So weÕd go and have the anonymous sex because they couldnÕt risk really meeting someone for fear of their family or their job or anything else.  I really viewed it as the people whoÕs only outlet for sex was anonymous bathroom sex.

R:  Do you view people like that or have you viewed people like that?

P:  I would probably have to use the present tense because there are still people who...

R:  Some people would be enraged that you think their lives are sad and pathetic because they enjoy bathroom sex.

P:  As their primary or only outlet for sex.  These arenÕt people who are open or willing to have a relationship with someone.

R:  Do you feel comfortable with that generalization?

P:  Uh huh.

R:  You donÕt think someone can be in a relationship with a lot of people and go and have anonymous sex in a bathroom with somebody and enjoy it and have a very happy, full, content life?

P:  I would need to tease that apart more.  Someone being in a relationship and having sex outside of the relationship is one piece of it.  Where or how they meet people outside of the relationship, then falls into different pieces.  I really dislike when IÕm driving along the highway and make a rest stop and walk in and thereÕs some guy hanging around the bathroom waiting and hoping that something is going to happen.

R:  Why do you dislike that?

P:  ItÕs not the time or place, itÕs not what that bathroom is there for, itÕs not there so that he can try to get his jollies.  I feel that there are fathers coming in with their young boys and everything else and if the image of a homosexual is going to be this guy hanging around the rest area on the New York state thruway, I donÕt think thatÕs a very nice image to present to people.  Have I mentioned that I am opinionated?

R:  What is a nice image to present to people?

P:  Well here I go with direction again.  The person who is comfortable with him or herself is in fact working, well that sounds the wrong term, but achieving.  A person who is in a committed and comfortable relationship.  I think those are the images.  One of the areas that is of interest to my research is looking at images in advertising.  If you think of a gay teen picking up a gay magazine and flipping through it because theyÕre finding out who they are and if you think about looking at the images as a message about gay life you get a very skewed message about gay life.  There is one ad from Raymon Dragon which has three very humpy guys sitting on lounge chairs in bathing suits and then this older balding, overweight man on the end and so it pits the young buff against the old out of shape and, of course, you want to identify with the young buff and so even within the gay community we have to find someone to pick on or put down as lower than us.  Or there are lots of ads for different parties or liquor or tobacco.  And interestingly there are also ads for people who need recovery so that you have liquor ads and recovery ads in the same publication.  There are also a lot of ads for viatical settlements and it paints this picture that when gay people become ill they become very desperate and they need cash because there isnÕt anyone else around to help them and yes the cash may enable them to do a lot of very nice things or help with medical bills, but if you look at this publication and think oh my God whatÕs it going to be like when I get older?  Or when I get sick?  IÕm going to be the old person sitting on the end with everyone else ignoring me.  Or IÕm going to be desperate for cash.  Or IÕm going be an alcoholic.  It presents these very odd images.

R:  Not based in truth?

Rich :  I would like to believe based on a truth we are moving away from.

R:  But where are we now?

P:  Where are we now?  I think maybe because I am not part of the gay culture that is about all the parties and alcohol and tobacco that that just seems very foreign for me and I want to make sure gay teens are aware that that isnÕt the only way that you have to define yourself as a gay person.

R:  What are you doing to do that?

P:  I think by being out with the students that I work with and trying to volunteer in organizations working with gay teens.

R:  What percent of the gay culture is contributing to the negative image?  Would you say half of the gay culture is obsessed with drugs or would you say ten percent?

P:  ItÕs probably a small percentage but when youÕre sixteen or seventeen and living in Indiana or Nebraska and finally get the nerve to pick up Advocate or Genre or Out, thinking that IÕll be able to learn about who I am in this.  And if you think that whatÕs contained in that magazine is how your life is supposed to be I think thatÕs the danger in the message.  But, I donÕt think itÕs a huge percentage.

R:  But you seem to have this idea of how lives are supposed to be played out.  I find that very interesting.  You donÕt seem to me to be to interested in embracing life as it is, but you seem very interested in orchestrating life or conducting life and trying to control and structure life.

P:  But itÕs the diversity that I want portrayed in the ads.  I donÕt want only one lifestyle portrayed in those ads.

R:  What if you had three old fat men in chairs and one humpy guy sitting off by himself, would that change it for you?

P:  If the four were playing cards all together or some sense of interaction then the ad would work for me.  But as soon as you pit one against another thatÕs where it breaks down for me.

R:  What about the alcohol ads?  Gay A.A. is huge.

P:  And also having a father thatÕs an alcoholic I think IÕm just very sensitive to how much our culture promotes the use of alcohol.

R:  Have you ever had a problem with alcohol?

P:  No.

R:  Have you ever thought about why you donÕt have a problem with alcohol when so many gay men have a problem with alcohol?

Rich :  I think for me it was that I took a stand that I wasnÕt going to drink to make a statement that I could be at a social occasion without drinking.  IÕm not saying IÕm not addicted to other things, I guess my big down fall is shopping.  Which is the other big gay addiction right?

R:  Fucking and shopping.

P:  So I think I do have the same traits that may drive people.

R:  Do you think addictions are bad?

P:  I think they can be, in and of themselves.  To say that a person has an addiction and thatÕs bad, well I wouldnÕt automatically make that statement.  But when you lose your life to it and I donÕt mean that in the death sense, or when it just gets in the way of you doing other things or it becomes what you structure your day around.

R:  Do you really believe that shopping is a problem?

P:  Only because I tend to purchase a little more than I should at this point financially.

R:  So youÕre spending above your means right now?

P:  Uh huh.

R:  Are you happy?

P:  Yes.  A part of my spending above my means right now is from the feeling of being a graduate student so long and really being on a strict budget.  I still am on a fairly strict budget but also know that others my age who didnÕt go on to graduate school and are working on Wall Street or who might be a lawyer are able to do these other things.  I never like paying full price for it though.

R:  How good a person do you thing you are?  In the top five percent, the top ten percent, the top fifteen percent?

P:  I donÕt know maybe the top twenty percent.

R:  You see yourself as a very good person?  Like, I earn my place here, I do good things, IÕm a good person?

P:  I would like to think that I try to help people and try to contribute.

R:  YouÕd like to think that or you do that?

P:  Well I do do that, but that sounds conceited.  I work as a volunteer in the rape crisis program and I donÕt just feel that I am doing something good.  I feel that thank God that I am able to do this and thank God that I am in this chair and not in that chair.  And God forbid I do end up on the other side of the table on this issue I certainly hope that someone would be there to help me.

R:  Do you counsel men or women?

P:  Both.  I am a primary counselor for men secondary for women.  But there are occasions that I have to work with the female.

R:  Is it common with men?

P:  ItÕs more common than we think and when the hospitals started asking the specific question many men would show up in the emergency room and say they were mugged or assaulted.  When hospitals started asking if they were sexually assaulted, the percentage of men who said yes to that went up.

R:  YouÕve never been sexually assaulted?

P:  No.

R:  What would your enemies say about you?

P:  Probably that IÕm opinionated, dismissive...

R:  Dismissive?

P:  I donÕt know.

R:  You donÕt have that many enemies?

P:  IÕm sure that there are people that will think IÕm vain because I do care about my appearance.

R:  Do you feel vain?

P:  Do I feel vain?  No.  I think that itÕs just basic to have a neat pair of pants and a pressed shirt on when I go to work.  I donÕt think that thatÕs really pretentious.

R:  Do you look down on people that donÕt have that?

P:  It depends.  Many of the people that I work with are on tighter budgets than I, so I donÕt think anything if they have to buy their clothes at Conway or a department store or whatever.  If theyÕre making an effort and showing up clean and neat and tidy, I donÕt judge them or think anything about them in what they are wearing.  Someone who shows up and appears as if they donÕt care about themselves, that makes me uncomfortable.

R:  Why?

P:  It doesnÕt instill confidence in their ability to do what they need to do or that they are going to care about it.

R:  I would argue that there are a lot of people that dress very well underneath the surface are miserable and fucked up and angry.  And there are other people that are happy and content but donÕt care how they look and they wear the same shirt four days in a row.  But it seems to me, and please correct me if IÕm wrong or if you dissagree, that you are very concerned with image and with what we see on the outside.  IÕm not saying that externals arenÕt important, IÕm not arguing with you at all. Yet you seem to ride the line, for example, you want people to look nice and care about the way they look, but when we put a hot guy in a magazine, youÕre not comfortable with that.  IÕm having a hard time putting it all together.

P:  Sure.  Yeah, I completely agree with you that you can have all image and no substance at all.  ThatÕs why I was saying the office assistant who shops at K-mart I donÕt judge the quality of her clothing.  The fact that she takes enough pride in herself to make sure she come to work neat and clean is whatÕs important.

R:  Is that an accurate statement that they take pride in themself because of their appearance?  Could they not be a miserable, low self esteem person and just work very hard at masking that?

P:  ItÕs possible.  I think itÕs easier when you have the money to afford high end clothes.  But the person who is just getting by and makes it a point to be clean and pressed and all of that...  But the person who shows up, okay you go out to lunch and spill something on yourself, fine.  But the person who shows up the next day wearing the same shirt, that I start to feel uncomfortable with.

R:  Why do you feel uncomfortable if they wear the same shirt the next day?

P:  Well, I think there are issues of personal hygiene and health that...

R:  Who is someone you would love to meet or work for?  Who do you greatly admire?

P:  My lover.

R:  Someone youÕve never met.

P:  People who are conscious of their self image and are more together.  I canÕt come up with a name.

R:  LetÕs say I meet with Steven Spielberg, a very powerful man in the world.

P:  But heÕs someone who tends to have a very casual appearance.

R:  Very casual appearance.  So I meet with him on Tuesday and everythingÕs great.  Then on Wednesday heÕs wearing the same shirt.  On Thursday heÕs got a stain on it and Friday itÕs the same shirt.  Would I think less of Steven Spielberg because of that?  Or would I just feel like something was revealed about him?

P:  But would it be the type of thing revealed that youÕd really want to know?  Or would it give you pause in thinking, really?

R:  Because his actions are, no.  I can relate to what youÕre saying though.

P:  Computer Scientists will get obsessed with working on a program and theyÕll spend thirty-six hours straight just working on this one thing and then they sort of go home, take a nap and come back without showering or anything.  And you sort of look at them and think there should be a minimal level here to the...

R:  Why should there be?  This is where I want to go. Why does it bother you so much about how other people look?   Do you think itÕs healthy or unhealthy?  And I do not know!  I really want to know, because I think thereÕs a war in the gay community between everyone who is so frustrated and tired of this obsession with good looks, yet nobody is doing anything about tearing them down.

P:  But what is tearing it down?  Is tearing it down walking around with a stain on your shirt?

R:  I have no idea.  What do you think?  I mean more people are going to gyms now than ever.

P:  I like going to the gym because I want to keep fit and stay healthy.  Obviously I am not a big, bulky, muscle boy and thatÕs not my interest.

R:  So you go to the gym for internal reasons, not for external ones?  Not because you want to look good so you can get guys?  Or because you want guys to look at you and think youÕre hot?

P:  It happens to fall out that way but my goal is not that.  The definition of the muscle is the goal because that is the way I know I have been working the muscle.

R:  But is health the issue with all the gay men that are in the gyms?

P:  No.

R:  Or is it looks?

P:  The fact that men are shooting steroids to get the look is showing that the goal isnÕt internal.  We know right there itÕs about the look and not the health.  But the guy who does go three times a week because he is trying to bulk up without steroids is also having the by-product of having the better body.

R:  Who would you rather spend time with?  A really mentally healthy person who is visually a mess?  Or somebody who is really beautiful and well put together but has nothing going on inside?

P:  If we are talking about someone that not only looks sloppy but also has horrendous manors, I would be mortified walking into a nice restaurant with that person because of the attention that it would draw.

R:  Even if that person was Al Gore or Bill Clinton or whoever you look up to?

P:  I think I would feel very self conscious.

R:  Why would you feel self-conscious if itÕs not you?  Why not just feel sorry for them and try to get what you can out of it?

P:  Because IÕm self-centered.

R:  So itÕs unhealthy?

P:  No.  I wouldnÕt say itÕs a good thing.  I think part of my wanting to look neat and together really is about not drawing attention to myself unless I want to draw attention to myself.

R:  So you care about how you are perceived?

P:  Uh huh.

R:  You also seem very concerned about how the gay community is perceived.

P:  Right.

R:  Do you go to gay pride parades?

P:  Yes.

R:  Do you enjoy them?  YouÕre pausing.

P:  Not completely, only because I am not thrilled with crowds that large.  It just gets too much for me.

R:  What about the images?

P:  I think that itÕs fine for people to have the day to enjoy their freedom of expression.  What I question is how there seem to be very discrete categories that people want to aspire to or try to fall into.  IÕve got no problem with someone doing drag, but is that the way we celebrate?  I celebrate my gay pride as a man dressing as a woman?  For some people it might be.  Or is it simply to be confrontational and outrageous, to try and draw attention to yourself?

R:  What would be wrong if it was to draw attention and be confrontational?

P:  I would hope that they are aware that their purpose is to be confrontational and to draw attention to themselves.

R:  Do you think that would be a bad thing though?

P:  Again it goes back to, is that the only way that that person defines himself as a gay man?  As one who dresses as a woman?  Or is that simply one aspect of his personality and this year he chose to highlight that aspect?

R:  And what if it is that way? Is there anything wrong with that in your opinion?

P:  No, but my concern is that somehow there is this piece that this is the only way that he can celebrate his identity.

R:  If you asked me about the Gay Pride Parade, I would say, "I love it!"  I wouldnÕt even think, well I have nothing against drag queens.  But that was where you went immediately.  You didnÕt say, "Well I donÕt like all the gay doctors who dress really straight and walk down the street."  I think you are drawn to more explosive images.

P:  Well those are the ads I can use when I deliver a paper.  But if you then look at the other ads in there thereÕs really very little left.  The number one adverting in most of gay magazines are viatical settlements and then there are liquor.

R:  ItÕs interesting that you can draw conclusions about the gay community when these ads are placed by individual business men.

P:   I think the gay community must police itself as to the messages they want conveyed by the collection of advertisements.

R:  That sounds slightly Fascist.  ItÕs our job to police ourselves to control the image that we want people to see.  When is that meeting going to take place because IÕd like to go and put my two cents in, you know what IÕm saying?  Would you say the same thing about black people?

P:  I think that Ebony needs to look at whether or not it really needs to be running tobacco ads considering the high percentage of African-Americans that smoke.  But getting back to gay magazines, if the religious right says we want to buy every ad in your magazine this month, because theyÕre going to put a very homophobic message in there, do we just say youÕre an advertiser weÕll take your dollars?  My guess would be no.  So I think that there really is disgression as to who they take ads from and who they donÕt.

R:  It seems to me that we canÕt decide what to do.  Part of us want to police ouselves and part of us belive we shouldnÕt police ourselves and there is this war.  Every person on the phone line has a swimmers build, then on the street I donÕt see those men anywhere and the personal ads say they are beautiful and healthy and you walk down the Castro or the Village and it doesnÕt line up.  Everybody I talk to shares your views that the community is so shallow and this is so this and that.  There is this dichotomy.  Ideally it would be great if people didnÕt have to sell their insurance policies but the reality is that they do.  So should we concern ourselves with the ideal or with the reality?  And that is the question IÕd like for you to deal with for a while.

Rich :  The viatical settlement ads, many of them have a vulgar slant to them.  So my beef isnÕt about what they are doing but how they are portraying it.  That the ad that had a fist full of dollar bills was vulgar.  The ad that said weÕre here when you need us, well excuse me, what about family, friends other people that are there when I need them?  Cash isnÕt the only thing

R:  ThatÕs not what theyÕre selling.  TheyÕre not selling family support.  TheyÕre selling cash.  ThatÕs what capitalism is.

P:  But there is no mention that in fact there may be others who are there for you also. There was one of two empty chairs on the beach.  Part of me that wanted to think, "Okay, here are two people that are off swimming and enjoying themselves."  But there was this whole big empty beach and just two empty chairs and all I kept thinking of was, "These people are dead!  ThatÕs why there is no one in the chairs!"

R:  But a lot of people are dead.

P:  Right, but if their point of selling the policy is so that you can enjoy life why didnÕt they show people showing life. There has been one ad that has come out for some health drink that is showing people going on with their lives.  The guy on the beach with his dog, some one else rock climbing so that in fact they are saying even though you are HIV positive you can continue to have a full and productive life and our product happens to help you do that.  That to me is a more positive ad.  It doesnÕt have this sense that you are being eaten away by AIDS thatÕs why you need this product, itÕs about enabling you to continue to do the things you enjoy doing.  So there are certain products that I am not opposed, only the way they are trying to market it.

R:  Are you HIV positive?

P:  Yes.

R:  So do you think that your problem with these ads comes from a very personal fear that maybe one day this will be you, that youÕll be alone and decrepit and desperate and dying?

Rich     No I donÕt. And if youÕre negative, you probably flip right over them.  It was at that point  after working with my gay students that I stepped back and thought, "What image are they receiving in these magazines?"  Prior to that I didnÕt pay them to much attention, I didnÕt really read into them.  It was when I stopped and thought that I said, "Wait a minute, if someone doesnÕt know or wants to learn more picks up this magazine and this is the sense they get about being gay and dying, also ignoring that fact that gay men die of heart attacks and in automobile accidents and of cancer and everything else.  ItÕs like the only thing that a gay is going to die of is AIDS and heÕs going to be very desperate in his life when he does it or when it happens."

R:  Do you feel like you are fighting that, like you will not live that life?

P:   I feel secure that I have people around me.

R:  Is your lover positive?

P:  No.

R:  Can you talk about having a long term relationship with someone whose negative and you being positive and what thatÕs like?

P:  Actually heÕs terminally ill with cancer which came as a big shock last spring.  I was always worried about my leaving him behind when the reality is now IÕm going to be left.

R:  Do you know youÕre going to be left?

P:  Yeah.

R:  How soon?

P:  Probably within two years.

R:  When did you find out?

Rich :  It was last January when it started.  He had a mark on his back that when we first became involved I mentioned it to him and he said, "Oh itÕs nothing, IÕve had it looked at."  And then last November it started to change a little and I mentioned it again and nothing and then last January it started to bleed and finally he went to the doctor to have it looked at.  It was skin cancer that went too far.

R:  Could it have been prevented if it had been dealt with sooner?

P:  Yes.

R:  Are you angry about that?

P:  I canÕt waste the energy being angry about that and who knows even three years ago it may have already been to late to catch it.

R:  I think that there is a reason that you are concerned with healthy images and with health and positive images because you are facing that.  ItÕs not that you think people should live a certain way, you value health not wasting your life.  Would you agree with that?

P:  Yes.

R:  ItÕs not that you want to judge people, itÕs that you want to be happy and healthy.  Because you seem pretty happy and healthy in the face of what youÕre dealing with.

P:  Yes.

R:  How long have you known that you are positive?

P:  Ten years now.

R:  What does it mean to you?

P:  ItÕs part of what has kept me focused on completing my doctorate.  This idea that I may not have the luxury of time to put things off.  After I found out I was positive that was the point when I really became obsessive about children and all of a sudden there was realization that I couldnÕt have a child.  I wouldnÕt dare put a woman or that child at risk of being HIV positive.  That was something that although, as I said, I was never interested in having children, it was my choice.  All of a sudden I felt like I have no choice in this.

R:  Did you feel like other things were taken away?

P:  No.  I really have lived a very full and complete life so far and will continue to cause I just donÕt know how long.

R:  How is your health?

Rich :  Thank God, itÕs been fine.  My counts are a little on the low side but still okay.  IÕm now doing a combination of medicines.  I had started one thing and had horrendous headaches and stopped that and they put me on a new combination and I havenÕt had follow up work to see if IÕm responding to that or not.

R:  Is it a big part of your life?

P:  ItÕs something I live with everyday.  I think that it pops up at the oddest times.  If IÕm at work and I cut myself, I think, "Oh my God, hereÕs blood!"  When I talk to eighteen, nineteen, twenty year-olds, who often think that nothing can harm them and I am not just talking about unsafe sex, just in general, you want to tell them thatÕs not always the case.  I thought I was practicing safe sex.  I havenÕt dwelt on who it might have been.

R:  What do you mean you thought you were practicing safe sex?

P:  I didnÕt have unprotected anal intercourse.  I donÕt know if a condom may have broken without my realizing it, if using it back in the mid-eighties when men first said use a condom and many went to lamb skin condoms rather than laytex, if I had you know cut myself shaving my balls and didnÕt realize it so here IÕm masturbating with someone and his cum is on me, but I donÕt realize that I have a cut.

R:  Were you negative at one point?

P:  Uh huh.

R:  When did you test negative?

P:  I tested negative, I guess it was Õ86.  Then tested positive in Ō87.

R:  Why did you get tested again?

P:  Part of it was that I had switched to a new doctor, and then in June of eighty-six I just got really sick and had blotches on my skin and I went to the doctor and they had no idea, they thought I had a reaction to some viral infection and my throat was very swollen and sore.  I had yeast infection in my mouth and it was awful and then it passed.  It wasnÕt until later reading literature that it said about some people have this type of reaction after they become positive.  So it was at that point that I was re-tested.

R:  Did you expect it to come back positive?

P:  No.  I expected it to come back negative.

R:  You are the first person that IÕve talked to that isnÕt sure how they got it.  Does that make you different?  Are more people interested in your story?

P:  I donÕt tell people that.

R:  Why not?

P:  I donÕt think a lot of people would believe it.

R:  Why would people think you were lying about that?

P:  I donÕt know.

R:  Cause you could have gotten it from oral sex.  Or is that ridiculous to think that?

P:  If you consider pre-cum.  But to that point there was only one guy that I blew that came in my mouth and I know heÕs positive.  IÕm still in contact with him.  I think it was either I had a cut that I wasnÕt aware of or the lamb skin condom.

R:  You never had unprotected anal sex?

P:  No.

R:  Did you ask a guy to pull out even with a condom?

P:  No.

P:   I think if people heard your story, you never had unprotected sex and youÕre positive it would make people pause a little bit.

P:  As I said either the natural condom which they tell you not to use anymore or one broke.  So I donÕt think that this is the immaculate conception but I think I have been more comfortable accepting the term safer sex rather than safe sex.

R:  What kind of sex do you have with your lover since you are positive?

P:  Very hot sex.

R:  Do you push the boundaries of safe?

P:  No, itÕs just that itÕs an incredible exploration of each other and part of it is he is so there in the moment with me that it can just evolve and happen and itÕs really wonderful.

R:  Your bodies just fit together?  Totally in tune?

P:  Yeah.

R:  Is he a top or bottom or is it all that just out the window?

P:  There isnÕt role playing.  There was one time a couple summers back (not that I have to go back that far for an example) we were in the kitchen during the summer and he just opened the freezer and took out an ice cube and started rubbing the ice cube over my chest.  It was very spontaneous and in the moment and it just went from there and it was very erotic.

R:  Is this someone you thought you would spent the rest of your life with?

P:  Yes.

R:  Did you hope and think it or did you know it?

P:  It was the sort of thing that I just felt.

R:  Had you ever felt that with anyone else?

P:  No.  And I know that sounds awful considering that fact that I lived with someone for several years who was very sweet and kind and caring and all of that, but I didnÕt feel the same connection.  I would at least like to give myself the credit for saying this isnÕt fair, you should have someone who is more complete with you than I am.

R:  How long ago where you in that relationship?

P:  That ended four years ago this March.

R:  Was he positive or negative?

P:  HeÕs positive.

R:  How was that different?

P:  I guess one of the things that got to me a little about being with someone who is positive is even if I forgot about it there was someone to remind me.  Whether he said something to me or talked about himself or whatever.  So that there wasnÕt as much escape from it.

R:  You feel confident that heÕs not going to be around after two years?

P:  Well the literature says there is a zero percent chance of five year survival, the question is when does that five years begin?  The fact that the size of the original lesion and the fact that it has already traveled to two sites puts him in a very advanced catagory.

R:  So you think five years is too generous at this point?

P:  Yes.

R:  Is it hard for you to visualize life without him?

P:  It feels awful to think about that, it almost feels as if I am wishing him gone already to think about life without him.  Right now when I have thought about it, I donÕt see myself in another relationship.  Not saying that it might not happen, but at this point I feel very complete and very loved.

R:  So what do you think will happen?  What will you do for sex and companionship?  Does your family know you are positive?

P:  No.

R:  They donÕt?

P:  I told my oldest brother because I felt someone in the family should know, God forbid something should happen suddenly.  I havenÕt told the rest of them and if the new medications work the way people are saying they should work I may have more years than I anticipated.

R:  Yet you donÕt see yourself in another relationship?  You feel very complete right now.  So without sounding vulgar, what are you looking forward to?

P:  What am I looking forward to?  One of the things that I have thought about would be leaving the city, going up the cape and just working on projects that I want to work on.

R:  Alone?

P:  For a while.

R:  How important is sex to you?

P:  I certainly love sex.  I donÕt know if jerking off by myself will be satisfying enough,  I mean I guess at some point IÕll want to feel someoneÕs embrace, but at this point I canÕt envision it or imagine it.

R:  So you wouldnÕt go back to bathrooms or tea houses or jack off shows?

P:  Back there?  I never started there in the first place!

R:  You said you went to J.O. clubs.

P:  J.O.clubs yes.

R:  Would you go back there?

P:  No, that was something a number of men that I knew went to so I went with them, it wasnÕt something that I did on my own.

R:  So would you rather have no sex or bad sex?

P:  No sex.

R:  Would you rather have sex if it was just pleasurable and you were getting off or if there was no emotional connection would you rather not have it?

P:  If there is no emotional connection there, I can watch a video.

R:  YouÕre pretty optimistic about the world in the end, really.

P:  Yes.

R:  How much of your life is ruled by fear?

P:   I donÕt think of big fears.  There are little fears that spur me on.

R:  Like what?

P:  Like the project I am working on now, I fear IÕm in way over my head with this thing.  I love to ski but I donÕt get to do it that often and thereÕs that first run when you take the chair lift and youÕre standing at the top there and you say, "What have I gotten myself into, why do I do this?"  And, of course, the only way down is to ski it.  But thereÕs that panic about, "What am I doing here, I canÕt do this."  When I first moved to the city I used to like to go out late at night and just walk around the city and part of it was the danger of it.  IÕd walk along the westside highway and walk around places that were very far from my suburban upbringing that felt  just very dangerous.

R:  And you liked that, you like danger?

P:  Certain amounts.

R:  Controlled danger?

P:  Right controlled danger.  I dated this one person years ago and he was more into the role of being the master.  It was different, but I like to explore and I was doing my little slave training thing.  At one point he said youÕre not really a slave youÕre just a pushy bottom and I thought about it and heÕs right.

SCENE: TONY-51 PAGES

Straight acting-perfect body-military past-lived straight for a while

T:   IÕm blue collar and going on forty-five and everyone tells me I look much younger. I workout five days a week, IÕm obsessed with it actually.

R:  Do you think you look young and hip or do you think you look like an aging blue collar worker?

T:  I think I look like an aging blue collar worker, no.  I think I look much younger than forty-four years old.

R:  Are you gay?

T:  Yes, but I used to date women.  I dated women until I was in my late twenties/early thirties.

R:  Did you enjoy it?

T:  Sexually, no.  I enjoyed the company.  But, I always knew, as far back as I can remember, I had an attraction to men.

R:  Do you remember your first fantasy about men?

T:  I remember at eight, ten years old seeing a man who I felt was attractive and getting a feeling, not a hard on or anything like that, but just getting a feeling that I knew was something more than just, "Oh that guyÕs nice looking."

R:  A feeling like you wanted to marry him, or youÕd like to hang out with him, or you want to kiss him?

T:  I wanted to be with him.  I was too afraid of touching him, every time that thought would come into my head I would pretty much go into denial.

R:  How old were you when you figured out that you wanted to touch men?

T:  My late twenties.

R: So what was your first sexual experience?

T:  When I was in my early thirties, but there was a lot of fantasizing going on in my late twenties.  IÕd say from the time I was twenty-seven till thirty-one, thirty-two there was a lot of fantasizing about men going on.  And when you fantasize long enough and hard enough, eventually you want to do your fantasies.  I remember getting in my car and just riding around one day doing errands.  I had no other intentions in fact it was the furthest thing from my mind.  But, I saw a guy on a bike.  He was very attractive to me and I looked at him briefly because I was too paranoid to do a lot of eye contact.  To even look like I was remotely gay, I was very paranoid.  He was very attractive, he had sort of longish hair, and I guess he was about my age at the time.  It was a warm day so he had tight shorts on and a tank top and he was riding his bike.

R:  Did he look gay to you?

T:  I couldnÕt have told you whether someone was gay unless they had a dress on.  At that point the radar wasnÕt developed yet.  I remember stopping at a light and he stopped too and I got a chance to look at him but he was staring nonstop so I was getting uncomfortable with it.

R:  He was really cruising you?

T:  Now I would say yes, but back then I didnÕt have a clue what was going on.  So anyway, there was a shopping center and he pulls into the shopping center to go into a store. I pulled in too and I went into a different store.  I just wanted to look at him, thatÕs all I wanted to do.  I got a sandwich and he came out, then I came out.  He looked at me, smiled and said hello.  I said hello.  To back up a little bit I was looking in the phone book at the time and I was looking for a massage parlor kind of place, I figured that would be a good way to get my rocks off with a man.  Even if I had to pay I wouldnÕt have to worry about being seen in a gay bar or gay surroundings. So I asked him if he knew of a place.  It really sounds off the wall but I did.

R:  Sounds like a pickup line if I ever heard one.

T:  Well, maybe I was good at it and didnÕt know.  But thatÕs the way it was at that time.  I mean I was really in the dark.  And he said no he really didnÕt and so I started back to my car and I turned around to look at him again and heÕs rubbing his crotch and that was too much for me.  I got in my car and drove off.  I rode around to the side of the building to make like a U-turn to come around and he followed me.  He got off his bike and acted like something was wrong with the chain on his bike.  And now  he was setting me up.  So I played the game and he asked me if I could put his bike in my trunk and take him back.  I said yes and left the bike where it was.  He got in the car and he said, "Did you ever have a blow job?"  And I said, very timidly, "No, not by a man."  And he said, "Would you like one?"  I mean this was like totally desolate, we were on the side of this building, there were no other cars there.  And he said, "Why donÕt you pull your pants down to about here," and he shows me with his hands.  And I did it.  And he started giving me a blow job.  Then he stopped and said, "I know a better place than this."  I said, "Okay."  So he gets out, puts his bike in the trunk and he takes me down this long narrow wooded road.  We pull off to the side and he started to blow me again.  Still to this day, probably cause it was my first one, I think it was the best blow job I ever had.  It lasted about ten to fifteen minutes.

R:  Were you getting into it?  Were you moaning and growing and going, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah"?

T:  Oh yeah.

R:  You didnÕt just stand there stunned?

T:  I was in shock.  I was petrified because I thought someone was going to drive by.   I mean this was my first experience with a man and it was so good that I thought, "ThereÕs nothing like this."  Well finally I came.

R:  WhereÕd you come?

T:  In his mouth.

R:  Did he swallow it or did he spit it out?

T:  He swallowed.  Afterwards, I just wanted to get the hell out of there, and he says, "Do you mind if I cum?"  And I thought, "What do I say?  Do I say yes, no?"  So I said, "Yes."  When he came, he shot all over the windshield and to this day IÕve never seen anybody shoot like that.  Just incredible.  And so he gets out, gets his bike out of the trunk and IÕm wiping off the windshield and that was my first experience.

R:  And you didnÕt get his phone number?

T:  No, it was a couple of years before I got phone numbers.

R:  Did you ever see him again?

T:  No.  DidnÕt know his name, didnÕt ask for names, he didnÕt ask for my number, I didnÕt ask for his.

R:  How did you feel afterwards?

T:  I felt guilty.  There were a lot of different mixed emotions about it, because it was my first time.  I struggled with feeling it was wrong for years.  When I first came out  I didnÕt accept myself, I didnÕt accept the fact that I was gay.  I knew I enjoyed the hell out of it and I knew I was going to do this again.

R:  Did you want to suck his dick?

T:  No.

R:  So youÕre a top?

T:  Yes, usually.  There was a time when I would not have considered being a bottom.  That was until my last lover and then I started to enjoy that.

R:  If the guy in the car wanted a blow job would you have given him a blow job?

T:  No, I wouldnÕt have given anyone a blow job at that point.

R:  What if he had said, "Can I fuck you?"

T:  No way!

R:  Did you touch his dick?

T:  No, I didnÕt touch him.

R:  Did he touch you?

T:  Yeah, and it felt great.  I love being touched.

R:  Did you guys kiss?

T:  No.  A very cautious boy, I was.  I wanted to get off with a man.  There were a lot of things I wouldnÕt do, but all I knew is I wanted to get off.  And I knew what I wouldnÕt do, but I knew that a blow job would be fine.

R:  Did you touch the back of his head during the blow job?

T:  My hands were at my side clinched because I was so paranoid and yet lovinÕ it.  Not even a finger on him and to wipe his cum off my windshield was just like, well actually I was angry at that.

R:  What did you clean it off with?

T:  I donÕt know I had something in the car.

R:  When did you start jacking off?

T:  Probably fifth grade.

R:  Did you have sexual thoughts before that?

T:  Not sexual thoughts, but I remember the first time I came.  It wasnÕt even close to jacking off.  I mean I didnÕt know what it was about.  I didnÕt know how a woman got pregnant, I didnÕt know why your dick got hard, all I know is it did.  I was laying on my bed, canÕt remember the thoughts, all I remember is that the feeling was good.  And I was kind of laying with my feet up on the foot board, rubbing my dick between my legs back and forth between my thighs, not with my hands.  All of a sudden I got this incredible feeling like I was going to explode.  And I felt something wet.  YouÕve got to remember, I did not know anything about sex.  And I feel something wet and I look down, I thought something was wrong with me.  I thought, "Oh my God, I ruined it.  I broke it.  I really broke it."  I was mortified for months until I found out.  The way I found out was some guys at school were joking around talking about it and then I realized that that must have been what it was.

R:  When did you figure that out?

T:  Put two and two together, it was months, maybe over a year.  Meanwhile IÕm thinking, whatever I did IÕll probably never be the same again because I did that.  And yet I kept doing it.

R:  You didnÕt mention it to anybody?

T:  No.  So that was the first time I came.

R:  Do you remember what you were thinking about?

T:  Not a clue, all I knew was this feels damn good.

R:  Do you remember any of your fantasizes as a kid?  Like when you started like actually jacking off and picturing images?

T:  No, because I grew up in a very, very strict catholic background and all this stuff was a tug of war and a battle because I thought it was just so wrong.  I mean weÕre sexual creatures and itÕs just part of us, but youÕre taught that youÕre going to hell.

R:  Were your parents affectionate to each other, did they kiss and hug?

T:  No.

R:  And they never mentioned sex to you?

T:  To this day they donÕt mention sex.

R:  Okay, so what was the first thing you started to fantasize about when you jacked off?

T:  I donÕt remember having visual fantasies cause I thought it was just so bad that I was going to go to hell.  But when it all started to happen for me with the fantasies and wanting more and wanting to be with men and sex and the whole nine yards.  I made up for lost time, big time!  I went nuts.  I packed in ten, twenty years of experience into a few years.  Fortunately IÕm still alive to talk about it.

R:  Are you HIV positive?

T:  No, IÕm very safe.  When I came out people were still really taking chances.  AIDS was known, but it was just right at the beginning.  But going back to fantasies,  I canÕt remember the first time I had a fantasy.  I remember masturbating other times, but I canÕt remember fantasies.  I remember looking at the Sears catalogs, the underwear section and whatever.

R:  When was the first time you had sex with another human being?

T:  I had sex with a woman when I was in high school.  We went out a few times, then we were together for six months and every night I would go to her house in the basement and we fucked around.  Her father caught us once, but he never said a word, just walked out like he never saw anything.  He walked right in in the middle of it.  I was eating her out and he walked right in the room.  I guess he was in shock, I donÕt know.  He was a stern man but he walked right out.  And we both looked at each other.  I stopped, she looked at me and our mouths were just dropped waiting for the shit to fly because we didnÕt know what he was gonna do and he never brought it up, never said a word.

R:  Do you remember the first time you had sex with her?

T:  Yeah, It was great because she was really into menÕs bodies.  I didnÕt know at the time but now I can look back and say she was really into looking, feeling, touching.  In other words she gave as much as she took, some women donÕt.  This went on for six months. No condoms, no birth control, no nothing, no even thinking about the period. A couple times she said she was on her period, but we took every chance in the book and she never got pregnant.

R:  Did you come inside her?

T:  No.

R:  So how did you figure that out?

T:  Well by then I was seventeen, you know.  And friends talk.

R:  Did they teach sex education then?

T:  Yeah, thatÕs what they called it.  They showed the anatomy and said this is a penis, this is a vagina, that was the extent.

R:  When they showed the penis on the anatomy graph, did you get excited?  Like surely there was a time when you started fantasizing about men.

T:  Yeah, youÕre with your buddies and theyÕre talking about tits, "Her tits this, I did that, I felt her up, I did this," and thatÕs all they talked about.  And then I was getting excited by it, but then IÕm in the locker room and IÕm seeing these guys.  At that point some guys are still developing and there was one guy, the only guy in the whole gym class that had a hairy chest, hairy stomach, hair everywhere.  And I could not look him in the face and at that point I realized this is a little more than just something every guy goes through.  Every time I was in the room with this guy, even when he had clothes on, I could not look at him in the face.  I didnÕt want him, no, I didnÕt want to touch him, no.  At that point I thought there was something wrong with me.

R:  Around this time, do you remember what you fantasized about when you jacked off?

T:  I think when I jacked off, it was either about men or it was about how the girls I went out with how they got me off.  So IÕm thinking this girl is getting me off and IÕm putting myself in her place.

R:  So you liked being the girl?

T:  Like IÕm the girl or IÕm another guy doing it to myself.

R:  Do you remember what kind of fantasizes you had?  Did you fantasize about your gym teacher or your father or the guy in the shower or fucking or sucking?

T:  I really canÕt tell you when I started fantasizing about fucking or sucking men.  I really canÕt.  But every fantasy had to do with a manÕs anatomy, not really a womanÕs, even though a women may have been there it was me being in her place doing this to a man.

R:  Did you go to dirty book stores?

T:  I was to afraid to go into those places.  We would go to a guyÕs house and have a bunch of guys over and their fathers would have an 8mm and theyÕd take out the straight porn and thatÕs how we would watch them.

R:  Would you watch them as a group and all jack off?

T:  No, just sit there and laugh.

R:  So youÕre fucking this girl like mad for six months.  When youÕre fucking her are you fantasizing about her or are you fantasizing about men?

T:  It was all about me.

R:  Were you attracted to her on any physical level?  Was there a female physical type you really liked?

T:  Well I had ones that I felt were more attractive than others.

R:  So it did matter to you what a woman looked like?

T:  Yeah, oh yeah, but that was an ego thing.

R:  You mean you wanted them to be beautiful?

T:  Yeah, you didnÕt want to be seen with someone who was a dog, itÕs the same with gay men, itÕs the same thing.

R:  Did you have girlfriends that you were really close to, talk on the phone all the time and hang out with?

T:  Yeah.

R:  So this woman that you fucked every night was also like a girlfriend, it wasnÕt like you were just running over there for sex?

T:  No, she was a girlfriend.

R:  Do you remember the day that you realized, "I am gay and I want to have sex with men?"

T:  Yeah, I was in my early thirties.  After high school, after being in the service with all men.  IÕm telling you I was a hard case, I was probably one of the hardest cases.  In fact a very close friend of mine who if it wasnÕt for him IÕd probably still be closeted said, "You are one of the toughest nails IÕve ever seen."  I was so paranoid.  I knew inside.  D you know what denial is?  Denial is you just canÕt deal.

R:  But it works on so many levels though.  You can know inside exactly what you want and just not communicate it to the world.  Or you can have a part of you know and then another part of you not and they battle against each other.  I mean thereÕs all these different ways.  But youÕre saying that it wasnÕt until your early thirties that you said, "I want to have sex with another man."  Yet in high school when you were fucking girls, you said, you were fantasizing about men.  So how in youÕre mind can you say it wasnÕt until your early thirties that you were wanting to have sex with other men?

T:  Because the subconscious can tuck things away so deeply.  You know what a pathological liar is?  Well IÕm not a pathological liar, but they are so convinced that what theyÕre saying is the truth that they donÕt even...itÕs the truth!  I knew that there was something, the guy in the shower in the locker room in high school, I knew there was a little more of an attraction to men than what made me comfortable, but I still thought it was going to pass or I was in such denial about it that I wasnÕt even admitting to myself that my fantasies were really for men and not for women.  ItÕs so hard for people who have been out their whole lives to understand, thatÕs why they say if everyone was to turn pink for a day youÕd be shocked because I think there are people who go through their whole entire life in so much denial and so closeted. I met the nicest guy youÕd ever want to meet and heÕs really, really gorgeous but he canÕt see it.  I can see it, he canÕt.  HeÕs so unhappy with himself because he hasnÕt accepted what and who he is.  This guy picked me up, thatÕs how we met, but he doesnÕt want to be gay.  For example, I brought him here to New York not too long ago and he didnÕt want to go to a restaurant where it was all men, he didnÕt want to go into a bar.  HeÕs paranoid.  I was the same way.  I would not go to a movie unless the guy was sitting far away.  I would not give the appearance.  I was just ridiculously paranoid.

R:  But were you homophobic when you saw people that were obviously gay?

T:  Oh yeah.

R:  Did you make jokes and scream out "faggot"?

T:  Yeah.

R:  Were you more homophobic than most straight people you knew, verbally?

T:  About the same.  I never beat up anyone.  But going back, the question you asked, which somehow we missed was, did anyone ever hit on me?  I didnÕt know it then, but now I realize that people were hitting on me more than I realized and that was the point I want to make.  I didnÕt have that sense, so I couldnÕt tell you if you were hitting on me or not.

R:  How many gays did you think were in the world?

T:  I never thought there were as many as there are.

R:  You thought we were like the few freaks who lived on the corner?

T:  Yeah.

R:  What was your perception of a gay man?

T:  Well it changed at different points.  At first it was stay away from me.  I didnÕt like it.  I was intimidated by it for more than one reason obviously because I was gay and would never admit it.  Now, I see people looking at the gym.  IÕd be lying if I said they werenÕt.

R:  Do you find that people pursue you aggressively?

T:  No, very seldom.  I donÕt know what it is.  My friends say itÕs because IÕm intimidating.  I donÕt think that I buy that, but thatÕs what they all tell me.  IÕve been approached, yeah, people come up and say hello from time to time.  But if I go in a bar, I can stand all night and no one will come near me.

R:  The big news is nobody gets cruised in a bar.  If you walk in a bar, everyone will be thinking, "Oh my God, heÕs really hot."  But they probably would be thinking they donÕt have a chance with you.

T:  YouÕre absolutely right.  And I think thatÕs a whole other can of worms, because I think people are afraid of being rejected!

R:  So letÕs go back, youÕre in the military.  How long are you in the military?

T:  For three years.

R:  Were you fucking women while you were in the military?

T:  Yeah.  IÕve always had a high sex drive.

R:  Were you like a "LetÕs go get some pussy" kind of guy?

T:  Yeah.  In Europe prostitution, at least in certain countries, is legal.  You can go ten, twenty times a week if you want.  They have whore houses there like the corner store.

R:  You had no problem paying for sex?

T:  No cause it was so cheap and there was no other way to get it.  Nine times out of ten you didnÕt want to go out with the women that were in the service because they looked like Mack trucks.  They looked like dykes and they were not appealing.  And there was no other place to meet women in the service.  State side is different I think, but in Europe, youÕre talking about foreign people and they donÕt want Americans.

R:  Would you all go with prostitutes?

T:  Yeah.

R:  Not to jump forward, but would you ever pay for sex with men?

T:  I havenÕt yet, but when IÕm about sixty or seventy and I have to... If you look ahead and start seeing how fast your life goes and you realize some day youÕre going to be sixty or seventy and youÕre not going to turn a damn head, how else are you gonna get it?  On the other hand, maybe then I wonÕt want it as much.

R:  Do you think a lot of gay men think theyÕre immortal, or do you think that a lot of gay men think that theyÕre going to be dead by the time theyÕre thirty-five.

T:  I donÕt think itÕs gay or straight.  I think itÕs just a generalization.  Most people, men, women, straight, gay, doesnÕt matter.

R: Because of AIDS though, I think a lot of gay men feel like theyÕre not going to live to see thirty.

T:  Right.

R:  So going back, youÕre in the service and youÕre this big pussy whore.  What were you like as a sex partner with women, were you really generous or you just wanted to fuck them?

T:  Passive.

R:  You wanted them to just sit on top of you?

T:  Blow job, because it wasnÕt such a huge turn on with a woman.  IÕd just get the hand job, blow job and IÕd just cum.

R:  Could you get sex for a long time or would you just cum quickly?

T:  Half hour, forty-five minutes .

R:  Would they get frustrated?

T:  YouÕre on the clock so there getting frustrated for different reasons.

R:  But most prostitutes only work for ten minutes.

T:  You werenÕt really on the clock.  They had a price list, like all prostitutes, price for this, price for that.  But the prices are for the services, not the time needed to provide the service.  It didnÕt matter if I came in 5 minutes or 5 hours.  But they would start to get testy after while.

R:  With you they would?

T:  Well anybody.  They want to get to the next guy, cause they can make another hundred bucks.

R:  So you never had a problem with premature ejaculation?  Or cumming too soon?

T:  Oh no.

R:  Have you ever had men complain that you go too long?

T:  Yeah.

R:  You have had men complain about that?

T:  Yeah.

R: With prostitutes did you ever get crabs or anything?

T:  Oh yeah.

R:  Oh yeah, like a lot?  You got crabs a lot?

T:  Oh yeah.

R:  Like how often?

T:  I could have started a crab farm, oh yeah!

R:  From blow jobs?  You got crabs from blow jobs?

T:  It wasnÕt just that, it was living with a bunch of guys, sometimes eight to sixteen in a room.  Bunk beds and everybody has different hygiene practices or none at all.  So you get could get crabs, crabs you never knew where you were getting them from.

R:  Did you have it continuously?

T:  I would get them five, six times a year.  All they had was this powder stuff to put on your crotch and it didnÕt work it, it got rid of some of them, but that was it.

R:  Was it cool to get crabs in the military?  I donÕt mean cool, I mean no one says, "Oh you got crabs, gross!"

T:  I donÕt know what itÕs like today.  But back then it was such a common thing.  There was so much sex going on.  Maybe state side it wasnÕt that way.  The stigma, thereÕs a stigma with shaving your crotch.  I think straight guys donÕt buy that.  Now they do!  Now everybody shaves.  They shave their chest, they shave their legs.

R:  Do you shave your body parts?

T:  Yeah.

R:  What parts do you shave?

T:  I shave my chest and my butt.

R:  Do you get them waxed?

T:  No but thatÕs probably what IÕm going to start doing.

R:  Who shaves your butt for you?

T:  I do it.

R:  With what a razor and shaving cream?

T:  Electric razor.

R:  How do you do it?

T:  The mirror.

R:  You stand there with a mirror and you put shaving cream on and you shave your butt?

T:  Yeah.  Shave my butt.

R:  Do you get in the crack?

T:  Sometimes, sometimes no, depends what kind of mood IÕm in.

R:  Would you shave when youÕre ready to go out at night?  Or do you shave it every day?

T:  No, no, no. Not every day, just whenever I feel like IÕm tired of it.  On some guys a hairy butt looks really nice, on me I donÕt like it.

R:  But if youÕre going out on the town to meet a guy, or pick up a guy, then will you say, "IÕm  going to shave my butt."?

T:  Yeah maybe if IÕm going to get lucky.

R:  Do you think itÕs a waste of time if you donÕt get lucky?

T:  No because it probably needed it anyway.

R:  Now do you shave your balls?

T:  Yeah.

R:  Now isnÕt that dangerous?

T:  A lot of people shave their balls.

R:  ItÕs so common.

T:  Just my balls though thatÕs all.

R:  Everybody shaves their balls, itÕs getting very common.  Why do people shave their balls?  I donÕt understand it.

T:  Why?  Some guys told me because they feel more.  I think thatÕs ridiculous bullshit. I think itÕs just an appearance thing.  It looks good.

R:  I prefer hairy balls.  So I donÕt understand.

T:  There it is then.

R:  Do you think itÕs a gym thing?

T:  Well the chest, the butt and the ass is a gym thing because when you finally get to a point when you start to get cut, and depending on how youÕre built and how youÕre put together and how your hair grows on your chest.  Some guys look good with it, some guy look more cut when theyÕre shaved.

R:  But your really hairy, right?

T:  I wouldnÕt consider myself really hairy, but yeah, IÕm hairy.

R:  ItÕs just like the hair on your arms?

T:  Yeah, thatÕs about how my chest is.

R:  Does it look good?

T:  Everybody says it looks good.  I donÕt like it.

R:  You donÕt like it?  I bet people would be attracted to it.  What are you attracted to?  Do you have a very specific type?

T:  No honestly donÕt have a specific type because IÕve seen guys that have swimmerÕs builds that I like and then IÕve seen those huge guys that I really like.  So I canÕt say it.

R:  But you go to the gym a lot, so.

T:  I tend to be more turned on by a fair skinned guy, blond, blue eyes.  But it doesnÕt have to be.

R:  All American guys?

T:  Yeah, exactly.

R:  So like straight acting, masculine, all American, not like a big Queenie.

T:  CanÕt go there.

R:  You would not date a drag queen?

T:  Not in this life time, no.

R:  No?

T:  No.

R:  You wouldnÕt even consider it?

T:  No.  No.

R:  But now is the muscle thing really important because you go to the gym all the time?  Or is it just that you wanna have a lot of muscles?  Is that what youÕre looking for?

T:  No itÕs important, but IÕll give you an example.  There is a guy that works in a store, like a convenience fast food kind of place and heÕs probably about twenty-five, heÕs blond, swimmerÕs build and heÕs not very big.  Actually heÕs kind of thin and I think he is just really hot.

R:  Have you never told him you were attracted to him?

T:  No, I think heÕs too young.

R:  Twenty-five is too young for you?  So you like older guys?

T:  In a sexual situation as long as theyÕre legal age it doesnÕt matter.  But I couldnÕt see myself in a relationship with somebody that young because there is nothing to talk about.

R:  Cause youÕre forty-five?

T:  Thank you weÕve established that.

R:  But you look thirty though and you seem like youÕre thirty.

T:  IÕve lived a lot of years and a lot happens and it changes you a lot.  You start to know who you are and what you want.  And a twenty-five year old thinks they do and they donÕt.  I donÕt mean that to be mean.

R:  No, I think youÕre right.  I agree with you.  Do you find you go through a process of thinking you know what you know want and then you find out what you really do want and then as you get older you find out even thatÕs not what you want?  Do you find there is there a point when things settle and life is consistent?

T:  I think circumstances have a lot to do with that.  But I think every five, ten years you gain more wisdom and become more mature.

R:  Are you happy?

T:  Am I happy?  Yeah IÕm very happy with myself.

R:  YouÕre happy with who you are and how you view the world and the way you move through the world?

T:  Absolutely, I wouldnÕt change a thing.

R:  You wouldnÕt change anything about yourself?

T:  Yeah physically.

R:  No, not physical.  Nothing inside, nothing inside of you?

T:  Inside, nothing, no.  Because it works for me.

R:  What would your ex-lovers and enemies say you should change?

T:  I can honestly say I donÕt have any enemies.  I have some friends that might not be real close or who are just acquaintances, but I donÕt have anyone that would say I could kill him or I just canÕt stand him, to my knowledge.

R:  What about ex-lovers?

T:  My ex-lover is still a very good friend of mine.

R:  Ex-lover, you havenÕt had ex-lovers?

T:  Two.  We still talk all the time, weÕre probably better friends now than when we were together.

R:  WhoÕs the other one?

T:  The other one I havenÕt seen or heard from in seven or eight years.

R:  What would he say you should change about yourself?

T:  Well when we met, I had just came out.  I was a baby in the gay world and I was very possessive.

R:  Oh you were possessive?

T:  At that point, yeah.

R:  I would think it would be the opposite, that someone would want to possess you because you just came out of the closet and you were young and adventuresome and fresh.

T:  Oh yeah.  Well he was really very attractive.

R:  He was a bodybuilder?

T:  Yeah.  I donÕt know what he saw in me because I had just started body building at that point.

R:  Did you feel inadequate when you were with him?

T:  Oh yeah.  I liked the fact that when we walked into a room this guy turned every head.  Every head.  I liked it because I felt, well heÕs with me, so IÕm proud of this.

R:  Is that a problem though?

T:  It became a problem later because I began to feel inadequate.  I started to distrust him because if he was getting all this attention, then something was going on.

R:  DonÕt you think itÕs a problem that a lot of people use other peopleÕs affection to validate themselves?

T:  Yeah.

R:  You donÕt do that any more?

T:  No, no.

R:  So does that mean you deal with rejection or does it cause you pain?

T:  I think rejection causes anyone pain.  Nobody likes to be put down or rejected.

R:  But donÕt you think that tying our emotions to other people is all a dangerous game? Why should our self esteem be tied up in what others perceive?  Whether it be that our self-esteem grows because an attractive person asks us out or our self-esteem falls because that person rejects us.

T:  It depends on what you do with it in your mind and how you deal with it.  some people will get ragged, bummed out for days, weeks, months even years over that, instead of just taking it for what it is.

R:  What is it?

T:  ItÕs part of life.  Not everyone is attractive to everyone.

R:  And whatÕs wrong with that?  ThereÕs a lot of self pity in the community.  I think the gay community needs less of that in their lives because of all the other things that we have to deal with, like AIDS and homophobia and everything else.  And yet thatÕs a big issue, this rejection.  For instance, IÕll read in the personal ads, "No fats and no fems" and to me thatÕs a really rude comment.  But then I might be friends with the person who placed that ad and understand who he is and realize thatÕs what he likes and he would never insult me to my face.  You know what IÕm saying?  So itÕs interesting.

T:  The difference is some people never even get to that observation, you know?  TheyÕre just, you hurt me and thatÕs it and IÕm writing you off and thereÕs just no justifying.

R:  But then you read the next ad and it says, "IÕm looking for big guys."  So I think you have to filter these ads to get into a healthier state of mind because itÕs dangerous to get hurt.  And certainly what you went through with this guy whoÕs more beautiful, in the end it probably fucked with your self esteem.

T:  ItÕs something I learned.  I always had low self esteem and I had absolutely no confidence.  I was raised that way.  I always put down all through my childhood.  And so I grew up thinking, you tell someone theyÕre not going to do something long enough and sure enough theyÕre not going to do it.  I just got lucky, I wanted to change it and I did everything that I could.  I read and talked to people and fortunately I changed it.

R:  Do you feel welcome in the gay community?

T:  Yeah.  I donÕt blend in with some of it because IÕm not really an in your face kind of guy.  To give you an example, gay pride parades annoy me because itÕs not focusing on real gay pride.  ItÕs focusing on who is dressed better or weirder or not weirder or has less on or has more on or the make up and the hair.  So I think the real issues get lost.  That here we are, weÕre gay, weÕre proud of it, and we want to move forward and be respected thatÕs what itÕs all about.

R:  Do you want to be respected by straight people?

T:  Sure.

R:  You do?

T:  Sure.

R:  ItÕs important to you to be respected by straight people?

T:  Sure.

R:  I would say itÕs not important to everyone, I donÕt think that is a universal truth.

T:  I think thatÕs a cop out.

R:  You do?

T:    I donÕt want to say with everybody, maybe some people honestly and truly donÕt care what anyone else thinks, but I think a lot of times itÕs a cop out.

R:  Do you feel like weÕre the ones who have to earn the respect?

T:  I donÕt think straight people are concerned about being respected by us because they think itÕs a sick, immoral choice.

R:  So why should we be worried about being respected by that society?

T:  Well we shouldnÕt, but it seems like the gay community is going to an awful lot of trouble to prove they are something and to get rights to this straight community.  So really they are concerned about it.

R:  Now are you closeted in any part of your life?

T:  No.

R:  Not at work?

T:  IÕm not like, "hey, IÕm Tony, IÕm gay", but if someone asks me, IÕll tell them.

R:  At work?

T:  Any work.

R:  Really?  ThatÕs not an issue for you?

T:  It used to be, but itÕs not anymore.

R:  Now do you tend to date guys, like would you date a guy, an actup or would you date a political activist?

T:  Yeah, I donÕt care what he does,.  I donÕt care if he stands on top of a roof and says, "Hey!"  If I fell in love and was attracted to him it wouldnÕt matter to me.

R:  Do you tend to fall in love with the same type of person over and over?

T:  Not anymore.

R:  Not anymore, but you did in a time period in your life?  Where you fell in love with the same type of person over and over and over/

T:  Same kind of a personality.

R:  Which was what?

T:  Which was, I think a lot of gay men and anyone, make the same mistakes over and over.  You tend to fall for the person who is doing the thing to you that the other one did. I was attracting people the were just very possessive.

R:  But you were possessive?

T:  I was.  I wanted to learn to get over that because, life is to damn short.  I donÕt want to keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

R:  So give me a check list of the kind of guys you would attract?  Physically, mentally, emotionally?

T:  Well physically, I donÕt think that really has any bearing on it because the physical aspect of someone is not what keeps you together.  Sexual sometimes yeah, a little bit.  But the physical thing like he didnÕt have blue eyes we didnÕt stay together, I mean thatÕs a little ridiculous.

R:  Do you think that exists though?

T:  IÕm sure everything exists.  Nothing would surprise me.

R:  But itÕs not an issue for you?

T:  No, itÕs not an issue for me.

R:  Did you find guys that wanted you for your looks then after the date you realized there was no connection?

T:  It still happens a lot.

R: But you did not do that to other people, or you do that to other people as well?

T:  I did.  I mean everyone has a one night stand from time to time.  Aside from anonymous sex, now IÕd say I look for a little more than just the physical.  ItÕs funny because I have several friends that recently broke up with long term relationships where you get so used to one kind of person and thereÕs little things about them that probably busted you up.  Now you meet someone else and immediately this red flag goes up, you donÕt have to say anything, just stay away cause itÕs the same kind of person.

R:  Do you find the older youÕre getting your vision of what youÕre willing to date is narrowing or do you find that itÕs opening?

T:  I think it narrows.

R:  Do you have a lot of anonymous sex?

T:  Um, whatÕs a lot?  I do have anonymous sex.

R:  Like once a week, twice a week, once a month?

T:  Not once a week, maybe a couple times a month.

R:  Do you like it?

T:  Yeah.

R:  You do like anonymous sex?

T:  Yeah.

R:  Do you feel comfortable with it?

T:  Yeah.

R:  Where do you find it?

T:  ItÕs not what IÕm looking for.  Some guys are happy with that and can do that the rest of their lives, I like to get deeper.

R:  Could you ever not do it?

T:  Could I ever not do it?  In a relationship.

R:  A relationship to you is monogamy?

T:  Yeah I like monogamous relationships.  I can play around day and night and love every minute of it.  And if I meet somebody and this is something really serious,  I can cut the other off like that.

R:  You can?

T:  Yeah IÕm a cold turkey kind of guy.

R:  So many men canÕt be in a monogamous relationship.

T:  Well, most guys want open relationships or they wonÕt say they want an open relationship.  TheyÕll say itÕs monogamous, but IÕll tell you since IÕve been single, eight out of ten guys IÕve met I found out later that they were involved with someone or married to a woman.  Or, "Oh yeah well my lover, weÕre not getting along."  All that time theyÕre saying theyÕre monogamous.  IÕm like, "What the hell are you doing with me if your monogamous?"  IÕm not putting them down, IÕm just saying that this is what itÕs like.

R:  Does it make you distrustful?

T:  Of who?

R:  Of future partners.

T:  No. I give everybody the benefit of the doubt.  IÕm not perfect, either.

R:  YouÕre not jaded, youÕre forty-five and youÕre not jaded and cynical?

T:  IÕm jaded in some respects.  IÕm cynical, IÕm skeptical, but I still think everyone needs a fair shot.

R:  Do you find the older you get the quicker it is for you to read people?

T:  Oh yeah.

R:  Are you right most of the time?

T:  No, but I have these friends that tell me my ability to read people is probably a little more than most.

R:  How much more?

T:  I donÕt know, because I donÕt know whatÕs the norm, but I think when people tell me about their dates, IÕm thinking, well geez donÕt you see this?  And then it will happen and theyÕll say how did you know?  But itÕs just so obvious.

R:  Can you do that for your own life?

T:  ItÕs harder to do for my own life, but it does save me a lot.

R:  Do you find you donÕt want to trust the information for your own life?

T:  Yeah, well I know a, b, c, d here, but maybe the c, we could get rid of the c.

R:  Are you like the eternal optimist at the end?

T:  Not always.  IÕm sometimes a pessimist.

R:  How important is love to you?

T:  Very.

R:  You would like to fall in love?

T:  Yeah.  IÕm a fuckinÕ hopeless romantic.  But itÕs weird, I really have two sides:  I can do monogamy or I can do anonymous sex and IÕll be fine, perfectly fine, enjoy it with no problem.

R:  You donÕt feel physically sick after anonymous sex?

T:  Only if I feel like that person is ultimately going to hurt themselves.  IÕve been in situations where I know they have a lover and maybe IÕm contradicting myself by saying well I like monogamy and yet IÕm fooling around with someone who has a lover.

R:  What is anonymous sex to you?  You go to a peep show and you stick your dick in hole and someone blows it or like you meet some guy in a park and you take them home for the night?

T:  It can be either way, however you meet them.

R:  But what do you look for in anonymous sex?  Is it about getting off for you?  Or are you still looking for people when you go have anonymous sex?

T:  Oh, I like the people factor.  Nine times out of ten it has to be somebody IÕm attracted to.

R:  So even though youÕre looking for anonymous sex itÕs gotta be someone youÕre attracted to?

T:  Yeah, itÕs gotta be someone who kind of fits, otherwise I may as well go jerk off by myself.

R:  Do you go to bath houses?

T:  IÕve been to a few.

R:  Do you go to sex clubs?

T:  A few times.

R:  Do you go to porno theaters?

T:  A few times.

R:  So these are all a few times, but if you wanted to have anonymous sex right now, where would you go?

T:  If I wanted to have anonymous sex right now first choice would probably be a theater.

R:  A dirty theater?

T:  Like a peep show kind of a place.  The whole bathhouse thing kind of scares me a little bit.

R:  Why?

T:  Because of the cleanliness and safety of it.  Not that I havenÕt done it and donÕt enjoy it but I just think itÕs dirty.

R:  What do you mean itÕs unclean, cause you walk around with your bare feet?

T:  Yeah, the whole nine yards.  I think in an atmosphere like that itÕs more of a turn on because everybody is getting naked or whatever and youÕre more apt to do something unsafe in a situation like that.

R:  You are?

T:  I am.

R:  You are more apt to do something unsafe?

T:  In a situation where itÕs conducive to do that.

R:  What is unsafe to you?

T:  Well, I think anal sex without a condom is, of course, number one on that list.

R:  Even if they pull out before they cum, do you think itÕs unsafe?

T:  Yeah.  I do not get fucked without a condom.

R:  What if a guy tells you theyÕre negative?

T:  I donÕt care if they show me on paper, I donÕt get fucked without a condom.

R:  What if they promised to pull out?

T:  I donÕt care.

R:  I could play you fifty interviews of men that "well I make them pull out, so I donÕt use condoms."  "Well I get fucked eighty percent of the time if they look like theyÕre positive."

T:  Look like?

R:  Tony, I cannot tell you.  I could play you fifty interviews, my mouth was like this.

T:  Look like!

R:  My mouth was open like this.  Well this guy was straight and straight people...I cannot tell you.  Fifty interviews.

T:  I mean thatÕs ignorant to say "look like theyÕre not."

R:  Every once in a while, I get someone like you who says, "No, this is unsafe.  I would never do that."  But itÕs so rare.

T:  Pulling out, and besides that, pulling out, okay the guys says, "IÕm gonna fuck you, but IÕm gonna pull out before I cum."  He doesnÕt have to completely cum in you.

R:  Tony, IÕm in tune with you.  IÕm with you darling.  I donÕt understand.  ItÕs very comforting to hear you say that, but unfortunately I donÕt think youÕre the norm.

T:  Oh I know IÕm not.

R:  So when you say, "I aware I did something unsafe."  IÕm thinking, "I wonder if that means heÕll go fuck without a condom?"  But when you say you did something unsafe, you still have this incredibly high standard of safe sex.  Which is probably why youÕre negative.

T:  IÕm sure.

R:  So what do you mean, do something unsafe?  What does that mean to you?

T:  Well I wonÕt let anyone cum in my mouth.

R:  You wonÕt?

T:  No.

R:  Absolutely not?

T:  No. But, then you have pre-cum, so that kind of blows that.  But no.  Except for a lover, a lover I will.

R:  You will let a lover cum in your mouth?  But how do you know heÕs not fooling around?

T:  Well, thatÕs a risk you take.

R:  ItÕs gray, everythingÕs in a gray area.  But you know the good thing about you, Tony, your gray levels are high gray levels.

T:  I feel pretty informed.

R:  YouÕve never thought they look positive or they look negative?

T:  Well, you can look at someone and say that guy looks kind of scrawny and sickly, yeah.  But itÕs just so foolish.

R:  Some guys have sex all the time that donÕt look like theyÕre positive.

T:  ThatÕs like saying, you donÕt look like you have a brain tumor.

R:  ThatÕs what they believe.  So youÕre more apt to say something is unsafe meaning you would let a guy cum in your mouth?  Or would you fuck a guy without a condom on?

T:  Would I fuck a guy without a condom on?  That IÕve done twice.

R:  Oh.  The gray gets grayer.

T:  Really.  That IÕve done twice.  Briefly.

R:  What do you mean "briefly?"

T:  Like thirty seconds, tops.

R:  All the way in?

T:  No.  Because something just stops me.  ItÕs like someone turned a switch off.  If I donÕt have a condom on, I canÕt function.

R:  When did you do this?

T:  With my first lover.

R:  In the intimacy of your home?

T:  Yeah.

R:  Not at a bath house?

T:  No.

R:  Did he want you to?

T:  And that was before I knew he was HIV...

R:  Your first lover was HIV positive?

T:  Negative.  They were both negative.

R:  Would you date a positive guy?

T:  Yeah.

R:  You would?

T:  Yeah.

R:  What would you do with him sexually?

T:  Very little.  I can honestly say I donÕt think IÕd do anything oral.

R:  You wouldnÕt suck his dick?

T:  As much as they say that itÕs safe, I think IÕd have a hard time with it.

R:  But youÕll suck a guyÕs dick, a strangerÕs dick.

T:  Actually, I donÕt do that too often.

R:  So youÕre like a really selfish top?

T:  No IÕm not.

R:  Do you like sucking dick or not?

T:  Yeah I do. But I donÕt suck everyone that I have sex with.

R:  Do you wanna be closer to someone before you suck their dick?

T:  No, it doesnÕt matter.

R:  So if youÕre really attracted to someone youÕll suck his dick?

T:  Yeah.

R:  But would you ask him if heÕs positive first?

T:  No, because people lie anyway.  I know, itÕs contradictory.

R:  Well, itÕs interesting.  But you would suck a strangerÕs dick and you wouldnÕt know if he was positive or not.  But if someone told you they were positive, then you would not suck his dick.  Yeah, thatÕs interesting.

T:  Yeah, it kind of blows a hole in it, I know.  Now if someone says IÕm sick, I have a cold and a sore throat, I wonÕt kiss them.

R:  You wonÕt?

T:  I donÕt want a cold and a sore throat.  But you can kiss someone else whoÕs coming down with a cold and you donÕt know it and so itÕs kind of like...

R:  Would you put your tongue in the mouth of someone whoÕs positive?

J;  Yeah.

R:  You would, if he were your lover?

T:  Yeah.

R:  Would you freak out about it afterwards?

T:  No, because thatÕs ludicrous.

R:  Would you let a positive suck your dick?

T:  Yeah.

R:  You would?  You would have no problem with that?

T:  No, I donÕt have a problem with that.

R:  So itÕs not the blow job that really is your issue?

T:  ItÕs the cum.  ItÕs the precum.

R:  Now if you were with a guy and there was a lot of precum would you stop sucking his dick and if youÕre with a guy who doesnÕt have hardly any then would you really go to town and have a good time?

T:  Yeah.  Precum spooks me.

R:  ThatÕs gonna be the name of my next book.  Precum spooks me.

R:  Do your friends have safe sex?  Are your friends a support system?

T:  Everyone I know close to me, feels the same way as I do about it.

R:  Do you find that thatÕs why theyÕre in your life?  Do you find that you surround yourself with people who tend to agree with you and share your views?

T:  I think that happens naturally.  I think everyoneÕs friends have quite a bit in common with each other.  IÕm not talking about acquaintances, IÕm talking your close circle of friends.  ThatÕs why youÕre friends.

R:  Do you have a lot of friends?

T:  I have probably four very close friends and then people that I consider acquaintances.  And the reason I say that is these four I know would do anything in the world for me if I needed it.

R:  Anything you need?

T:  Anything I need.

R:  Do you talk to them all the time or are they just there for you?

T:  Yeah.

R:  Are they people that have been in your life recently?

T:  I donÕt need a huge circle of friends and people calling all the time, I just donÕt need that.

R:  You donÕt need it or you donÕt want it?

T:  Probably a little of both.  I donÕt need it or want it because itÕs difficult to maintain.  ItÕs work to maintain a good solid relationship or friendship.

R:  What are your friends like?  Are your friends mostly like blue collar types like you?

T:  Every person I know is either a doctor or a broker or a lawyer or some head of something, and thatÕs just the way it is.

R:  That has money?  Why, why money?  WhatÕs the money thing with you?  Just to be around money?

T:  ItÕs not whatÕs me.

R:  Do you have money?

T:  IÕm reasonably poor.  No, IÕm reasonably comfortable.  ItÕs just that thatÕs the way it happened.

R:  Do you worry about money?

T:  I worry about my bills.

R:  Do your friends help you pay your bills because they have so much money?

T:  No, I wonÕt take it.

R:  Do they offer?

T:  Yeah.

R:  They do?

T:  Yeah.

R:  But you wonÕt let them?

T:  I wanna do it myself.  IÕm just average people.  When I meet someone and we become really good friends, a lot of times I donÕt even know what he did until a few weeks later.  It just always happens that way.

R:  But they have money.  Why though?

T:  I donÕt know why, it just happens.  I can tell you one thing.  I can be really, really attracted to say someone out in the street digging a ditch.

R:  Blue collar.

T:  Blue collar, with the helmet and the sleeves cut off and all that.  But after the conversation IÕm like, okay, next.  IÕm more comfortable with people that have a little intelligence and intellect.  And a lot of times the money is just a part of that because they happen to fall in the category where theyÕre a doctor, a  lawyer.

R:  So I donÕt think you can say, itÕs just an accident all my friends have money, itÕs a fluke.  I think there are reasons.

T:  What I meant by that was, itÕs not like IÕm not saying, "Well how much do you make a year, because if you donÕt make x amount of dollars then I donÕt want anything to do with you."

R:  Sure.  Oh God, no, no of course.

T:  ItÕs not a shallow thing.  But yeah, I like people who are intelligent.

R:  How important is a conversation to you?

T:  Very.

R:  How?

J;  I mean you gotta be able to communicate.

R:  But would you rather have hot sex or hot conversation?

T:  It depends on what length of time weÕre talking about.

R:  If you had to choose one or the other.

T:  It comes down to if you want a quicky type of thing or not.

R:  Yeah, but IÕm talking about relationships, cause relationships are very important to you.

T:  In a relationship after three months, six months, the sex and glamour are gone.  You did everything you could do, you probably did it in a week or less.  If you donÕt have anything deeper with that person, theyÕre gonna be out looking for something else and so are you.  And itÕs not just conversation, itÕs gotta go even a little deeper, cause anybody can talk.  ItÕs like a soul-mate kind of thing.

R:  Have you found a soul mate?

T:  No.

R:  You havenÕt found your soul mate, but youÕve been in these long term relationships?

T:  Right.

R:  So if you could never find your soul mate, would you prefer to be in a long term relationship or have anonymous sex or, or would you be content to continually live a life of flip-flopping?  You have anonymous sex, you meet somebody, get in a relationship, you get out of anonymous sex, then you get out of the relationship?  What do you want?

T:  I donÕt like the bouncing around thing.

R:  You donÕt?

T:  No.

R:  But youÕre comfortable with it, you said?

T:  Not with bouncing, not from relationship...

R:  You said youÕre comfortable, you said you can have anonymous sex and you donÕt feel bad, you feel fine.

T:  When I say bouncing around I mean from relationship to relationship.

R:  Oh, you donÕt like to bounce around?

T:  No.  I donÕt like that.

R:  So would you rather bounce around from anonymous sex to anonymous sex than from relationship to relationship?

T:  Well it depends on how long your talking.  A one year, two year, here and there to me isnÕt enough, so IÕd rather just stay single.

R:  Really?

T:  Yeah.

R:  You would rather not be in a relationship with a man, than have it only last for a year?

T:  Yeah because in a year you donÕt even get to know someone.

R;  Really?

T:  You donÕt even scratch the surface in a year.

R:  How long would you allow a courtship to go on before you actually said I think weÕre serious about each other?

T:  I could say that after a few months.

R:  Would you say it after a few weeks?  Is that immature?

T:   ItÕs never happened with me.

R:  Never?

T:  Not a few weeks, no.

R:  You never met a guy and right away you said...?

T:  IÕm still trying to feel a guy out after a few weeks.  People put their best foot forward in the beginning of any dating thing.

R:  So you donÕt have a one night stand and then for the next five months fantasize and obsesse over a guy?

T:  No.

R:  You donÕt lose sleep over a guy not calling you?

T:  No.

R:  You donÕt?

T:  I donÕt.

R:  You meet a guy and give him your phone number and he doesnÕt call, you donÕt freak out about it?

T:  After a week?  No way.

R:  Many men do.

T:  Now wait, after it goes on a few months, two months, three months, then I might say why the hell didnÕt you, this is ridiculous, you didnÕt call me this week, like three days have gone by.  But not a week.

R:  When do you start to put expectations on a relationship?

T:  Depends on the individual.

R:  So thereÕs no rules?

T:  I donÕt think you can set rules.  You can have set standards, because thatÕs you and thatÕs what you want and thatÕs what youÕre looking for, therefore thatÕs how.  One person may not be able to live by those kind of rules and thatÕs very unfair.  IÕve done it.  But thatÕs very unfair to put expectations on someone.

R:  Would you be comfortable maintaining a relationship with someone that didnÕt have the same mind set as you?

T:  Well I think there is a consideration factor.  For example, "Hello, itÕs me, IÕm sorry I canÕt make it for dinner, can we make it for another night."  Rather than blowing me off completely or calling me after the fact, "You know we were supposed to get together at seven."  ItÕs the next day and theyÕre calling and telling you, this is why I didnÕt make it last night. Well yeah, you called but here I was sitting waiting all night for you.

R:  So are you good at it?

T:  Good at what?

R:  The relationship thing?

T:  No, IÕm not good at anything.

R:  Oh stop it.  Why are you bad at the relationship thing?

T:  I think I give too much.

R:  Really?  YouÕre very giving, very generous?

T:  Yeah, I put my whole entire self into it and I think that it does different things to different people.  I think some people it intimidates, some people it scares because commitment is not a good word for some people.

R:  Do you think some people see you as too aggressive?

T:  IÕm not aggressive.

R:  So what do mean you jump into it?

T:  No, not jump into it.

R:  You donÕt jump into it?

T:  But when IÕm in it and when itÕs agreed that weÕre both going to be in it, I just really love that person.

R:  Do you get hurt a lot?

T:  No, I pretty much know when something is going to be good or bad.  So it doesnÕt get to the point where IÕve fallen for this person, it has happened, quite a few times in the past, but not so much now.

R:  But do you do the hurting?

T:  No, not deliberately.

R:  So you donÕt have a lot of pain in your life?

T:  As far as what?

R:  Men, relationships, dating.

T:  I broke my last relationship off and that hurt me I think more than it did him.

R:  Why did you break it off?

T:  Because he couldnÕt communicate his feelings to me basically.  I was always second guessing constantly, can I change this, should I lay sideways, should I do this, should I come in later, should I make you dinner?

R:  And it went on for how long?

T:  Six years.

R:  When did it start to go sour?

T:  After four years.

R:  But then you drug it out for two more?

T:  Yeah, which a lot of people do.  Most people, I think, drag a relationship out for longer than it should be.

R:  So youÕve been in a relationship for six years and one for how long?

T:  The other one was like two and a half.

R:  Those are the two relationships youÕve been in.  So youÕve been in a relationship eight and a half years.  Were you monogamous and faithful or did you cheat?

T:  I cheated in my last year of the last one. I told him that I was going to cheat if he didnÕt quit cutting me off sexually every time he got mad at me.

R:  So you told him, IÕm going to cheat?

T:  I told him.

R:  I think thatÕs very noble.

T:  I said, "Hey, you know, I have needs too.  Maybe youÕre good for having sex every three months, but that doesnÕt work for me."

R:  ThatÕs what he wanted?  Sex every three months?

T:  Well, it boiled down to that.  And I said, "I need a little more.  If IÕm not gonna get it from you and you wonÕt tell me why, IÕll go out with someone else and get it.  Do you want me to do that?"  And he wouldnÕt answer me, so I did it.

R:  Now let me ask you a ridiculous question?  Who do you think was more attractive, physically?  If we had a hundred gay men here and they looked at both of you, who would get the most votes?

T:  ItÕs a tough question.

R:  Only because youÕre so damn humble.

T:  No, IÕm not.

R:  Is it really that close?

T:  IÕve had so many people say, "God heÕs really so cute, heÕs cuter than you."  I think it would be a tie.

R:  Did you feel like he was more attractive than you or did you feel like inside you were?

T:  Physically?

R:  Uh huh.

T:  I was more muscularly defined.  But he had this natural thing going on, that just pissed me off, because I worked my ass of five days a week and heÕd go to the gym two or three days a week. And I used to jokingly say, thatÕs not fair.

R:  So did he lose his attraction for you or was sex not important to him?

T:  I donÕt think sex was ever important to him.

R:  Even from the beginning?  Was he a top or a bottom?

T:  Both.

R:  And you were both in the relationship as well?  So it was a versatile relationship?

T:  Yeah.

T:  So you went out and had anonymous sex, but you had warned him first.  Did you start doing it all the time or did you do it one time to make a point?

T:  I did it one time, made the point and told him I did it.  And it didnÕt change anything.

R:  What was his reaction when you told him?

T:  He cried.

R:  He cried?  So there was a lot of love in this relationship?  It was not two guys getting together having a good time for six years?

T:  ThatÕs what hurt me the most.  Because when he cried, I thought, "Man I was wrong, I did this all wrong."

R:  You lived together?

T:  Yes.

R:  Did you have nice apartments?  Typically beautiful gay apartments?  Were you living the American gay dream?

T:  Yeah.

R:  What did he do for a living?

T:  Major white collar.

R:  So he made more money than you.  Was this bad for your self esteem, was this a problem?

T:  Yeah, because I really feel like I have to contribute my fair share and I never could, so that definitely bothered me.  But he never once held it over my head.

R:  How old was he?

T:  He was thirty-six.

R:  And how old were you?

T:  We were like seven, eight years apart.

R:  You were younger?

T:  He was younger?

R:  He was younger?  Did you ever feel in any way like a kept boy?

T:  Oh, no.

R:  You never felt like that?

T:  No, I never felt like that.  It never came up, he never brought up money.  Once he pointed something out and it was really a bad time in our relationship and he was having a lot of problems with one member of his family who was terminally sick and once he said something because I was out of work at the time.

R:  What did he say?

T:  I said I wished there was something I could do and he said get a job.  It just went right through me cause I was looking and looking and couldnÕt find anything.  You know?

R:  If I sat him in this room right now and you were not here and I asked him, "Do you feel like Tony took advantage of your financial situation?"  What would he say?

T:  HeÕd say no.

R:  Are you sure?

T:  Yeah.

R:  HeÕd believe that?

T:  Yeah.

R:  Would he think no or would he say no?

T:  I think he would believe it.  He knows that I never used him, he knows that.

R:  Do you know that?

T:  Oh yeah, I absolutely know it.  I still feel guilty about the situation.  But I know, positively.

R:  So it was not a problem in the relationship, or it was?

T:  Well it was a problem for me more than it was for him.

R:  It was for you?

T:  HeÕs the kind of person that wants you to screw him, there is nothing you can do or say to get back in his graces, heÕs that kind of person.

R:  So he was cold?

T:  No, if you screw him, take advantage of him, slight him, there is nothing you can do to get back in his good graces.  So if the money was an issue with him, he wouldnÕt be calling me several times a month.

R:  HeÕs still calling you?

T:  Oh yeah.

R:  You guys are really close?

T:  Not really close, but thereÕs still that friendship.

R:  Do you still have sex?

T:  No.

R:  Is the relationship over or will it start up again?

T:  ItÕs over.  You canÕt be forced into going back into something like that, it was broke.

R:  When you say you didnÕt put in your fair share, what was the gap?

T:  Well he was paying everything for about six months.

R:  Did you have joint checking accounts?

T:  No, I didnÕt believe that it needed to be.

R:  Did you have credit cards in his name that you could use?

T:  No.

R:  Where would you get money?  He would just hand you money?

T:  No, well I was working and just paying my bills.

R:  Did you get to choose how you wanted the apartment furnished?

T:  He would want me to make the decision because I was better at it than he was.

R:  But he would write the check?

T:  Yeah.

R:  Interesting.

T:  I was better at it than he was.  So thatÕs what he wanted.

R:  Would you be comfortable getting back into a relationship where somebody had much more money than you?

T:  ThatÕs not an issue.

R:  ThatÕs not an issue?  Money is a huge issue in most relationships.

T:  Well money, lack of it or possession of it, can hurt just as equally.

R:  Yeah, the idea that itÕs always about money is such bullshit, there are so many issues.

T:  You can both make exactly the same forty thousand dollars each, to the penny and still have major problems over money.  But thatÕs something else.  But for my own benefit, my sake I have to have the feeling that I am independent of this person financially.

R:  Okay, letÕs talk about the gym.  YouÕre obsessed with going to the gym.

T:  Not as much as I used to be, but yeah.  I really canÕt say I get sick to my stomach if I miss.  I do go through guilt thing.

R:  Do you talk about it with people?

T:  About what?

R:  YouÕre obsession with the gym.

T:  Everyone knows.

R:  How do they know?

T:  I donÕt see myself as being obsessed, I used to be obsessed.  Now IÕm just, whatÕs a little less than obsessed?  Fanatical?  The next step down.

R:  Did you go today?

T:  I didnÕt go today because itÕs my day off.

R:  One day a week you take off or two days a week?

T:  I usually take off one day a week but sometimes two.  I make sure I get five days a week in.

R:  Never take off three, never take off four?

T:  No!  Four days?  Oh my God, no!

R:  Really?

T:  IÕd have to be sick, deathly, IÕd have to be on my death bed to take off that many days from the gym.

R:  Do you talk about it a lot in your life?

T:  It comes up.

R:  But you talk about it, like I have to get to the gym today, I have to go to the gym.

T:  Yeah.

R:  Do people laugh at you?

T:  Well it depends on who youÕre with.  Some people think, get a grip, canÕt you just miss?  And you know, when you work so hard to get where you are, to miss is just, well youÕre never satisfied.  See thatÕs where the guilt, sick feeling comes in, because you go, day in and day out, and you see results.  And then those results make you want more.   Whether itÕs to get bigger or to stay toned, thereÕs still this drive to make you wanna stay at least somewhere in there.  So when you miss you just feel like you back slid.

R:  So where do you feel youÕre at with your body right now?

T:  Oh, IÕm totally dissatisfied.

R:  Look at your arm, itÕs popping.  Look.  Look, pull your sleeve up.  Look at that thing, look at this thing how it just comes up.  I donÕt know what itÕs called.

T:  Triceps.

R:  But look at this thing.  ItÕs like, whatever, I donÕt have them, whatever.  How can you be dissatisfied with your body?

T:  See, youÕre one the few people that I can say this to because you donÕt know me.  I say it to my friends and they think IÕm fishing for a compliment.  And I swear to you, I look in the mirror and I think, well I see, obviously thereÕs results from what I was twelve years ago cause I was like that big around.  But itÕs harder now for me to maintain because IÕm older, the older you get, the harder it is to maintain.  So I gotta work harder than a twenty year old to maintain it.

R:  But is it about age too?  You have this fear of getting older?

T:  Well yeah.  Any gay man that says no to that, the vanity and the whole nine yards, looking in the mirror, is a liar.

R:  But you think youÕre attractive?

T:  Yeah.

R:  Look IÕll line up all the people in the world and weÕll put the really attractive people over her and the really ugly, whatever that means, people over here.  Where do you feel you fall in the spectrum?

T:  Here.

R:  Right in the middle.

T:  Right about there.

R:  Close to the ugly people.  Like about three city blocks away from the ugly people.

T:  I can honestly tell you I do not see myself the way people describe me. When I do see people look, and you were talking about turning heads it always amazes me.  And that I think stems from being a child with no self esteem and believed that I was nothing.

R:  Do you have a big dick?  Because a lot body builders have small dicks.

T:  Well, the muscle tone is not that great, but...no.  Six and a half, seven inches.

R:  YouÕre unhappy with it?  You want a bigger dick?

T:  IÕm not happy with that, IÕm not happy with my ass, IÕm not happy with...

R:  But Rex Chandler whoÕs this big porn star, heÕs got the perfect body, heÕs got a ten inch dick and heÕs always complaining about how his dick isnÕt big enough.  IÕm like you have a ten inch dick, but it doesnÕt matter, he wants one of those dicks that just flops out and falls on the ground.

T:  The more you get, the more you want.

R:  ItÕs very fascinating, the gym thing.

T:  To me itÕs a job, itÕs not recreation any more, itÕs gone way beyond recreation.   ItÕs like having to eat a meal to stay alive.  Not just it tastes good or to be healthy, but to stay alive.

R:  Is it healthy?  YouÕre obsession with the gym?

T:  It was unhealthy, itÕs not anymore.

R:  But itÕs still basically an obsession?

T:  Yeah, IÕd say itÕs pretty much an obsession.

R:  Do you find men to fuck at the gym?

T:  No.

R:  Do you look for men to fuck at the gym?

T:  IÕm open.

R:  I thought youÕd find the most beautiful men at the gym.

T:  It depends on what kind of a gym you go to.  Mine is mostly straight.  There are some gay men there.

R:  Do they know youÕre gay there?

T:  No one has brought it up.

R:  Do people know or suspect youÕre gay when they meet you?

T:  I sat at a table having dinner with two guys, one is a very good friend of mine and the other was a friend of his, an acquaintance of his who I had just met, and we were having a conversation.  We were talking about everything, I mean men, dick size, everything.  And the guy that was with him said to me, "Are you gay?"  IÕm like, "WeÕre sitting here talking about men and youÕre asking me if IÕm gay?"

R:  If I met you on the street, I would say, "I think heÕs gay."

T:  Yeah, well.

R:  But not faggy!  My God youÕre not faggy or queenie.  If masculine is over here and feminine is over here, and I had to put you in one or the other, I would say that you are ultimately a really masculine guy.

T:  Yeah?  Of course I worked at it.

R:  Did you?  Were you feminine as a child?

T:  When I was in grade school and for part of high school even, I was called fairy.

R:  You were?

T:  Oh yeah.  I worked at it.

R:  Were you a fairy?

T:  I donÕt know where it came from.  But I worked to change, I donÕt know if it was my walk, I donÕt know if it was my talk, my mannerisms, but I hated it.  So I worked at it.  But this is not an act.

R:  No, I know itÕs not an act, but you did turn out to be a fairy, so itÕs interesting.

T:  IsnÕt that ironic?

R:  How do they pick up on that?

T:  Probably because I was an introverted and sensitive kid.  And those kids usually get tagged.

R:  Did your clothes always match, were they always clean?

T:  Well yeah, but everyone was then.

R:  I think I was one of these guys, I think thatÕs where it came from, because I was called a fairy too and I think thatÕs why my insecurity is so deeply inbred about being called faggot or being called fairy.

T:  When someone tells you something long enough, you tend to believe it.

R:  But itÕs interesting that they did call you faggot and you turned out to be one, I mean thatÕs interesting.

T:  Even then.

R:  Even then, cause they donÕt tend to call kids that and then they donÕt turn out to be that way.  The kids who the school decides are gay, usually turn out to be gay.

T:  Well I never fit in as a child, that could be part of it too.

R:  Really, you never fit in as a child?

T:  I never fit in.

R:  Your parents know you gay, right?

T:  Oh they probably know.

R:  But you havenÕt talked to them about it?

T:  No.

R:  You wouldnÕt ever want to volunteer the information?

T:  Not to them.  TheyÕd just go into denial about it anyway.

R:  What about your brothers and sisters?

T:  Do they know?

R:  Uh huh.  No one knows in your family?  Do they talk about it behind your back?  Do your brothers and sisters get on the phone and say , "TonyÕs gay."?

T:  Like I said, sex is never discussed.

R:  Still?

T:  Never.

R:  Still?  YouÕre living at home right now with your parents?

T:  Yeah.

R:  And howÕs that working out?

T:  Awful.

R:  Like whatÕs it like?  Do you have guys calling you there, are they nervous cause a lot of guys are calling you?

T:  Well I have my own line.  IÕve been away from my mother and father for twenty-some years.  And to move back, I mean I had no choice.  It was the last thing in the world I wanted to do, but it was the only choice I had.  WeÕre not that close.

R:  You donÕt sit around and talk every night?

T:  No, we donÕt even sit in the same room.

R:  Do you go to places in South Jersey to find sex or do you always come to Manhattan?

T:  I pretty much come here, I go to Philadelphia occasionally.

R:  Okay, so when you leave here tonight, where will you go?

T:  Back home.

R:  You just drove up for the interview?

T:  No, I drove up for the day, IÕve been here since early this morning.

R:  Oh!  So, what have you been doing all day?

T:  I just tripped around, did some shopping, got something for my nephews.

R:  Did you see friends?

T:  No, I called, but no one was around.

R:  And so now youÕll drive home?  You wonÕt go out clubbing tonight?  You wonÕt go to the peep shows?

T:  I would but I have to work early, itÕs a Sunday night and I wonÕt go out, IÕll just go back.

R:  So you did not come here to the city looking for sex?

T:  Not today, no.

R:  Is that rare for you?

T:  Is what?

R:  To come to the city and not look for sex?

T:  You know, itÕs funny about sex, I donÕt go looking for it.  If the mood strikes me then itÕs there.  If IÕm horny yeah, if IÕm not, IÕm not.

R:  Do you masturbate a lot?

T:  A few times a week, a few hundred.  No.  About four times a week.

R:  Do you always do it at the same time?

T:  No.

R:  Do you do it in like different positions, like do you stand up, do you lay down?  Most guys have rituals, like they go to sleep at night and they always jack off last thing before they go to bed.  Or always jack off in the shower.

T:  No.

R:  You donÕt?  ItÕs different?

T:  ItÕs different.

R:  Now what do you fantasize about?

T:  Usually something that happened to me that day or that week or someone I might have seen.

R:  But not things youÕve already done?

T:  Sometimes things IÕve done, sometimes I just pop a movie in, watch a movie.

R:  You watch porno movies?

T:  Yeah.

R:  At your parentsÕ house?

T:  Yeah.  I have my own room in my parentsÕ house.

R:  ThereÕs no chance they could find out youÕre watching porno movies?

T:  Very slim.

R:  Are they hidden well?

T:  Now they are.

R:  Your mother wouldnÕt go in your room looking for something in the closet?

T:  She knows better.

R:  Really?  And what if she walked in there and she found a gay porno in your room?

T:  Then shame on her for looking.

R:  Would you have a big fight about it?

T:  No.  If she said anything IÕd say, "First of all, youÕre in my room looking for stuff and you found something.  You shouldnÕt have been there."  Basically.

R:  YouÕd say that, you donÕt have any right to be there?

T:  It sounds snotty.  But thatÕs basically what IÕd say.

R:  So you donÕt live in fear of your family finding out?

T:  IÕm forty-four years old.

R:  But IÕm surprised it hasnÕt come up.  Why arenÕt you married?

T:  Well that used to come up.  But like I say, they are really old fashioned, into denial.

R:  Do you miss that though?  Do you want that lifestyle, a family and kids?

T:  I used to, but not anymore.

R:  What made you let go of that?

T:  Knowing that I was gay.

R:  You didnÕt think that you could have that when you were gay?

T:  The only time I wanted a family and kids was when I thought maybe I wasnÕt gay.  But then when I finally realized this is what I am, especially when you start loving who you are.  Not that it wouldnÕt be bad to have a kid.

R:  Sure.  But when youÕre thirty-three and youÕre starting to come to terms with that youÕre going to grow up and youÕre going to live your life as a gay man the rest of your life, what did you think being gay meant?

T:  It was really scary for me.  I was so afraid of the ridicule and afraid of being accepted.  I was so afraid of what everyone else thought and not having my own mind.  It took me a few years to get over that.

R:  Did you think that you were gonna like start wearing really purple shirts?

T:  No, I knew that wasnÕt...

R:  You knew that wasnÕt...?

T:  Yeah, cause I saw so many guys in my long term relationships, they were very masculine and people that they knew were, so I knew, you know?

R:  So you knew?  So you had an idea of what it meant to live as a gay man?

T:  Yeah.

R:  Have you traveled a lot?  Oh youÕve been to Paris six times you said?

T:  Well, when I was in the service.  We used to go back and forth to Paris.  In the states I donÕt travel, I donÕt really have any desire to.

R:  If I gave you a million dollars tomorrow, what would you do?

T:  What would I do?  Get an apartment here, first thing, tonight.

R:  YouÕd get an apartment in the city?  And then what would you do with your days?

T:  IÕd get a job, something fun.

R:  Do you like working?

T:  If itÕs something fun, yeah.

R:  Do you like your job right now?

T:  No.  ItÕs not me, itÕs not what I want.

R:  No, but you have an artistic sensibility. I really donÕt know what it is that I would do, but I would have to be doing something.  IÕm not the kind of person that can just sit, I donÕt care how much money I had, I have to do something.

R:  Is money important to you?  Or do you want just enough to get by and get what you want?

T:  IÕd like more than that.  IÕd like to know what itÕs like for a change.

R:  But you lived with it though, you lived with it for a while.

T:  But it wasnÕt mine.

R:  How would it have been different if it was yours?

T:  If it was mine, I donÕt know how it would be different.  But it wasnÕt.  ItÕs kind of like living under my parentsÕ roof right now.  ItÕs not mine, you know, itÕs theirs.

R:  Living with this guy for six years, did you feel like this stuff doesnÕt really belong to me?

T:  At times.

R:  You did?

T:  At times.

R:  Did you worry about what you spent because itÕs not really your money?

T:  At times.

R:  Really?

T:  At times.

R:  And would he tell you to get over it?

T:  Yeah.  But thatÕs just how I am.  Now if the shoe was on the other foot and I was making all this cash and he was in my position, I would tell him to get over it.

R:  You would?

T:  I would say, "Here, I got it, you donÕt, take it.  WhatÕs mine is yours."  And he would say that to me from time to time, "WhatÕs mine is yours."

R:  What was your worst sexual experience?

T:  Worst sexual experience?  I didnÕt expect that.  LetÕs see, slips my mind.

R:  You ever do phone sex?

T:  I donÕt like it.

R:  YouÕve tried it?

T:  Yeah.  DoesnÕt do anything for me.

R:  Have you ever done personal ads?

T:  Personal ads?

R:  Answered personal ads?

T:  Answer them?  A few.

R:  And how did it work out?

T:  I find that most people really exaggerate quite a bit.

R:  Everyone has that perception.  Did you get rejected from a personal ad?

T:  No.

R:  You met the guys and they were not what you wanted?

T:  Well they werenÕt what they said they would be.

R:  I find that so shocking.

T:  You find it shocking?  What?  That they arenÕt what they said?

R:  Yes, that people would lie like that.  I donÕt understand.  Like who would do that?  IÕd be so humiliated I wouldnÕt be able to get up in the morning.

T:  The first one I answered, I talked to him on the phone, great voice, really hot sounding.  Described himself, you know IÕm really, I have a gym body too.  And that wasnÕt important, but thatÕs what he told me, and he gave me his dimensions.  Waist size, chest size, blond hair, fair skin, blue eyes, the whole nine yards.  IÕll meet you at such and such at such and such a time.  IÕll be wearing this.  I said fine.  I didnÕt tell him what I would be wearing because something told me that he could be lying.

R:  What told you?

T:  ThatÕs my instinct.  I just get these feelings.

R:  But he was so specific?

T:  He was so specific, but that doesnÕt always...

R:  But he leaves himself open, I mean he doesnÕt leave himself any room for variance.

T:  No room.  And he was going to be standing in a window more or less, in this coffee shop in Philadelphia.  So I walk past and sure enough thereÕs the green jacket and blah, whatever else.  And I mean, not even close.

R:  Come on.

T:  Not even close.

R:  Tony, come on.

T:  He told me he had beautiful blond hair and he was bald.  I swear to you.  I just kept right on walking.  Not that bald men canÕt be attractive, but come on.

R:  Did he see you?

T:  Yeah, I looked at him, he looked at me.  And I just kept right on walking.

R:  He was bald?

T:  I thought if he has the balls to tell me all this and lie.

R:  But maybe he was like really cut and had a perfect body under the jacket?  How do you know, Tony?

T:  It was summertime.

R:  What did he have on?  He was wearing a jacket?

T:  Yeah, but he had this light green jacket, it was springtime actually, with a tank top and shorts.

R:  He had shorts on?

T:  He was just nothing like the way he described.

R:  Oh come on.

T:  IÕm not lying to you.  I answered another one, you would think I would learn my lesson, and I figured heÕd be lying too and he said, "Yeah IÕm an ex-football linebacker."

R:  Ah, my heart starts beating.

T:  Yeah, mine did too.  And again blond and I forget what he said his weight was versus his height which matters.  I mean you can tell, somebody says, "IÕm five nine and I weigh this much."  You can kind of tell what theyÕre going to look like.  He must have weighed three hundred and fifty pounds.

R:  Oh no.

T:  I swear to you.  And he was about six foot and I thought he didnÕt look anything like what he said he looked like.  He said, "Everyone tells me IÕm so handsome."  You do get a mental picture in your mind, but youÕre usually not a hundred and fifty, two hundred pounds off.

R:  Or fifty years.  What I hear a lot is the age difference.

T:  Yeah, older, older.  But if you talk to these people, and you hear their voice, then nine times out of ten you can tell basically how old they are.  I mean I figured you for in your, somewhere in there.

RL  NOTE:  NEEDS TRANSITION

R:  Do you do drugs?

T:  I did when I was younger.

R:  You donÕt do drugs now?  Cause drugs are so prevalent in the community, like everyoneÕs high on something.  So what have your drug experiences been?

T:  In late high school years and definitely the service because it was so easy to get.  I never did coke, I never did heroin, but acid, LSD all that.  Ups, downs, you know grass, hash.

R:  It never showed up?

T:  But I was into all the other stuff sometimes seven days a week.

R:  Really?

T:  I was just so burned out.  Probably suicidal.

R:  You were suicidal because of the coming out?

T:  Well this was a long time before that.  And thatÕs what it did to me.  I didnÕt know who I was and what I was.

R:  YouÕve come so far, are you aware of that?

T:  Yeah, itÕs really done full circle.

R:  ItÕs fascinating.

T:  IÕm just lucky.

R:  Do you drink?

T:  Yeah, not like...

R:  But you donÕt have an alcohol problem?

T:  No.  Not at all.

R:  Do you do poppers when you have sex?

T:  Yeah.

R:  You do poppers?  Tell me about poppers, no one has ever told me about poppers.

T:  Tell you about them?

R:  IÕve never done them.

T:  YouÕve never done them?

R:  IÕve smelt them, but IÕve never done them.

T:  ItÕs just a rush you get, you know your heart rate increases.  How good they are for you, I donÕt know, IÕm sure theyÕre not.  I donÕt do them every time I have sex.

R:  Do you like sex with or without them?

T:  It depends on who IÕm with.  A lot of times if IÕm with someone and itÕs not the greatest sex, poppers will enhance that.  ItÕs like a rush and it lasts like twenty or thirty seconds but it seems a lot longer.

R:  Really, it hits you like right away?

T:  Yeah.

R:  But it doesnÕt sustain?

T:  No.

R:  Hmm, I never heard that before.  So where are you going with your life?  Where do you think youÕll be in fifteen, twenty years?

T:  Here I hope.

R:  So youÕd be living in Manhattan.

T:  Hope so.

R:  Will you have a boyfriend?

T:  ThatÕs a big part of my plan.  I donÕt wanna live the rest of my life alone.  ThatÕs it ultimately.  But I need to get some kind of a plan.  IÕm really at a point in my life where I gotta be doing something that makes me happy.

R:  What do you think that might be?

T:  ItÕs a shot in the dark to even think about this for me, because it is expensive to live here.  Although IÕd live in a closet at this point and be happy for it.

R:  But what do you think it might be, this thing that youÕd do?

T:  I donÕt know.  ThatÕs the only thing that scares me is that I just donÕt know.

R:  But do you ever think about the fact, that youÕre so youthful looking and youÕre so youthful oriented, and you kind of came into the gay thing late in life that you have great things ahead of you?

T:  Yeah.

R:  Because youÕre not set in your ways like a lot of forty-five year olds, youÕre so into learning and growing and changing and do you ever feel like the best is yet to come for you?

T:  ItÕs kind of uncanny that youÕre saying that, because that is whatÕs keeping me going.  That type of desire, that hope.  Everyone has dreams.  Everyone has hopes.  But exactly what you just said, is what IÕve always felt.  But on the other hand, you get to a certain point in your life and you think, "Damn, if it hasnÕt happened by now, itÕs just not going to happen."

R:  I think the story with you is that you spent your whole life figuring things out and putting things together and the best is yet to come for you.

T:  I hope the best is yet to come.  Because I would hate to think that this is where it stops. IÕm very open to different things and it scares me when I meet somebody who puts everything in a bag.

R:  Very contained, something that canÕt be contained.

T:  Yeah.  If I had a dollar for every time I was asked me what do you think you want, I wouldnÕt have to work anymore.  I just donÕt know.  ItÕs not a lack of drive, I just havenÕt found that niche.

R:  But you will.

T:  I think so.

R:  YouÕve done a lot, too.  You donÕt have to wonder what it would be like to have a boyfriend.  You have the answer.

T:  IÕve lived a lot of life in my forty-four years.  IÕve seen a lot and done a lot.  Nothing is going to surprise me.

SCENE: STEVEN-20 PAGES

Very free-a big queen-hooker-very wild-but innocent-funny

R:  Steven, so youÕre gay right?

S:  Yes I am.

R:  How long have you been gay?

S:  IÕve been gay all my life.

R:  Have you had any doubts about it?

S:  I didnÕt find out about it for quite some time.

R:  When did you come out?

S:  I came out when I was seventeen and but before then I had sex with quite a bit of women.

R:  Did you know you were gay from birth?

S:  I didnÕt know I was gay from birth .  When I was in high school I started getting my hair cut from this guy who was gay and really attractive.  I didnÕt know anything about gay lifestyle or if one even existed.  I always dreamed that one day my mother and father would die and I would be able to just sleep with men when I want and theyÕll just leave my house afterwards.

R:  So you knew you would be gay one day?

S:  Yeah.

R:  Did you think you would be gay and live together with a man like your parents?

S:  Absolutely not.

R:  What did you think it would be?

S:  Just sex.

R:  You thought youÕd be single and have men come over?

S:  Sure.

R:  Did you ever think you would be close to men in a friend way?

S:  I never thought it was ever like that.

R:  Did you have sex with this hair dresser?

S:  Yeah eventually I did.

R:  These hair dressers are just bringing everybody out.  Thank God for hairdressers.  So, when was the first time you had sex with a man?

S:  First time I ever had sex with a man was on my eighteenth birthday.  I became really good friends with that hair dresser and he took me to my first drag show in Richmond.  I met his best friend, a really, really gorgeous man.  Anyway, my hair dresser made up a story that there wasnÕt enough room with him and his boyfriend for me to stay at his place,  so I should just spend the night with his best friend.  We were just listening to music and he started giving me a massage on my back and that was the time I fully had intercourse and everything with a man.

R:  What did you guys do?

S:  He fucked me.

R:  And youÕd never been fucked before?

S:  Never totally like that before.  No.

R:  And how was it?

S:  It was very good.

R:  You enjoyed it?

S:  Yeah.

R:  Was it scary to you?

S:  It was very scary, but magical, like strange magical.  I was so excited, I never dreamed that something like that would ever be able to happen.  I would spend the night over at a manÕs house willingly and my family knowing and everything.

R:  What was the next day like for you?

S:  Well the thing about it is that was the first time I had intercourse with a man fully but two weeks prior to this I came out to my family and my sisters.  And one of my sisters said weÕre going to see my husbandÕs family in New Jersey to get out of the house and give mom and dad some time to deal with it and I said sure.  So they took me to New Jersey and my sisterÕs husband has a cousin that lives in New York, sheÕs a lesbian, she was in New Jersey visiting her family as well.  She and I got to talking and she said I canÕt believe you came out at such a young early age, I mean IÕm almost forty and IÕm not out.  And I said, "Oh my God, youÕre a lesbian?"  I didnÕt even know.  She said, "Would you like to come to New York?  You would love it."  So from Jersey I went to New York for a week and I met a gentleman and his roommate at the Museum of Modern Art on a bench and we became friends.  He called me the next evening and we went out for a drink and I got to sleep with him.  We didnÕt have intercourse but we fooled arounS:  sucking, touching, champagne and everything, it was amazing.  That was my very first experience with sleeping over with a man.  When I went back home to Virginia thatÕs all I could think about.  So the night I slept with that man and had intercourse it was really great and fantastic, and my hairdresser kept saying, "Oh, youÕll fall in love with my best friend."  I would not have any of that.  I just said, "No, absolutely not.  IÕm moving to New York the day I graduate from high school.  I will not have any of your best friend."

R:  You knew you had to go to New York?

S:  I knew I had to go to New York.  And the day I graduated I got a job restoring antique furniture for one week and I took the check at the end of the week and jumped on a Grey Hound bus.

R:  How old were you when you got here?

S:  I had just turned eighteen.

R:  So your first sexual experience was in New York City?

S:  I had sucked and touched men before.  I had a girlfriend that I was going to marry.  We were engaged for two years.  And I was fooling around with a guy who was best friends with her.  They worked together at McDonaldÕs and they closed together really late at three and four in the morning.  And she would come in through my window after work and he would too.  Well I got to know him and I would go to his place and we would lay on top of each other and suck and stuff.  That was basically my first experience.

R:  When you had these sexual experiences when you were young, the next day did you felt great about it or were you nervous?

S:  With my girlfriendÕs friend, I was very ashamed.  Growing up in Virginia youÕre taught to act masculine.  Any hint that you were feminine meant you were labled gay by the rednecks.  I always made sure I stayed with more of the artistic guys and girls in school and more of the black guys and girls because I never wanted to be associated with rednecks.  But the next days I was always embarrassed because my mother and father had met the guy and afterwards they just thought he was just so gross cause he was very feminine.  TheyÕd ask, "You donÕt hang around him, do you?"  And I would answer, "No, I donÕt hang around him."  I didnÕt tell them I slept with him.

R:  And this guy was very feminine?

S:  Yes.

S:  What kind of guys do you get into?

S:  Now?

R:  Yes.

S:  Something happened in my sex life that changed what IÕm into.  My second relationship was a very bad one.  I was beaten and stuff and we were into drugs really bad.

R:  What drugs?

S:  Cocaine.  I was in the hospital nine times and got kicked out of every single one of my familyÕs houses.  Both of my sisters, my grandmotherÕs, my uncleÕs, my parentÕs.  He was Latin and he had a temper when he was fucked or when he was on drugs.  We had a really good sex life on drugs and a really bad sex life off the drugs.  He would want to have sex three and four times a day, and it would be just me bending over and him putting it in and not even wiping off when he was done five minutes later.  He would just pull up his pants and sit down and finish watching TV.  ThatÕs how our sex life was when we were off of drugs.  When we were on drugs which makes you really horny, we tried to do everything.  We tried every position, every thing, every way you can possibly conceive we tried when we were fucked up.   But with everything that happened, I got turned off of LatinÕs.  And instead of pursuing a relationship with people I was more sexually attracted to, I turned to somebody who I knew cared about me and it didnÕt have to be my visual type that I enjoyed most.

So now IÕm with a guy who IÕve been with for about three and a half years and he is completely smooth.  And I mean so smooth he has no under arm hair naturally.  But he has a very large dick, itÕs very thick.  He loves to fuck and he knows how.  And he loves to get fucked.  HeÕs in love with me and I finally grew up and learned that that is much more pleasurable and enjoyable than somebody that visually attracts you.  Only because my relationship now is open enough, we donÕt have open sex, but itÕs open enough that if I want a hairy chested guy or a Latin, he loves to watch me with them and he enjoys seeing me with him and visa versa.  I love to see my husband with somebody that makes his eyes close because he is in so much pleasure.  ItÕs so enjoyable to know that if youÕre going to be with this person for the rest of your life, why would you constrict them to just you, when you might just be with him because you love him not always because their body is stimulating.  Later on down the years you gain weight or things happen where youÕre not as sexually attracted to your lover as you were at first so why only make them be with you and constrict them and make them cheat on you?  ItÕs really nice to see him enjoy himself and why wouldnÕt you want to see your lover with someone else, if you enjoy it?

R:  So love and affection is much more important to you now than just sex?

S:  Absolutely!

R:  ItÕs more important that you are in a relationship that you are happy in?

S:  Yes, but donÕt get me wrong, we have the best sex with other people and with each other than I have probably had in my life.  But the love, I totally believe, has nothing to do with sex.  I learned to divide them.  I escort, and I donÕt love these people that I fool around with for sex.  I love my husband very much and I love having sex with him, thatÕs just a plus.  You can have sex with somebody and not love them and you can love someone and not have sex with them.

R:  Where did you meet Philip?

S:  I met Philip on a call.  A gentleman that I met at a hustling bar introduced us. I personally donÕt like bars that hustle. Escort services are much better.  Much cleaner and nicer and much more beneficial.  But I went there for exactly thirty days because I had no money.  In that time I met this gentleman named Anthony, a much older gentleman, and he was good friends with a guy named Philip.  Philip just happened to have fooled around with Anthony and thatÕs how they became friends.  Anthony wanted to watch Philip have sex with me and from that day on weÕve dated and IÕve been with him for three and a half years.

R:  You started hustling when you got to New York?

S:  I got into hustling the first guy I met.  He was French background Creole from Mobile Alabama.  Beautiful, beautiful man.  He loved the eyes, touching, seeing, smelling, and he got me into masculine smells. ThatÕs one thing that turns me on, is a masculine smell.  When I sleep with a man, I donÕt want a man smelling like Jean Paul Gotier or roses or flowers.  I want the man to smell like a man.  I love body hair and I love under arm smell.  Not dirty, but musky.  I love that musky smell.  Anyway, he taught me to really study the man and like the man for the man.  He taught me that bodies were beautiful.  He showed me the alternative, artistic side of New York.  And he just happened to be in the hustling business.  I went in for an interview three days after I came to New York and the place was the BillionaireÕs Boys Club.  Business was so amazing then.  It was the 1991 era and I used to sleep with the phone because you would do a minimum of six to seven calls a day at one hundred and fifty dollars apiece.  I met a lot of interesting people.

R:  You were just loaded then?

S:  Yeah, I was doing it and getting paid more in one hour than my mother got in a week and a half of flipping burgers.  I definately did it and I did it with full force.

R:  You had no moral problem with it?

S:  No. I have learned through the years that people and things should not be judged in any way.  I donÕt see who and how laws came about.  I donÕt understand why a color has to be worn, why your hair has to be a certain way, why your furniture has to be set a certain way, why water should be drunk a certain way, why you should write a certain way.  I donÕt understand who made these laws and I see that people conform to certain ways of doing things.  But I donÕt believe in judging anybody for anything that they do unless itÕs involved in hurting somebody.

R:  So what do you think about hustling?

S:  Hustling is one of the most phenominal things around.  I donÕt understand why people have hang-ups of people giving their time, talking, sexually stimulating them in any way possible for an exchange of cash.  ItÕs just money.  ItÕs just governmentÕs way of saying youÕve got to work and give something to get something.  If it means to do it and to give cash to have sex with somebody why not?  It helps people.  Some people donÕt have somebody to talk to and they come us and we talk to them and they give us money.  Some people are in a relationship with a wife and children.  They began the relationship because society told them it was wrong to be gay.  So now theyÕre married to women that they donÕt love any more or maybe thereÕs love but theyÕre attracted to men more.  I or any hustler is there to give them sex and youÕre allowed to pay for it.  ItÕs okay.

R:  Have you ever paid for sex?

S:  I pay for sex as much as I get paid for sex.

R:  Really?

S:  I think itÕs the best thing.  You call up the agency and you say today I want a long guy who has piercings in his body, who only strips in front of you, likes to fuck and doesnÕt speak a word of English, and youÕll get that.  Or you can go the opposite and say I want a transsexual with tits and a dick, itÕs what you want and you get it and pay for it.  ItÕs so simple and easy.  ItÕs so dumb to go to bars if youÕre just going to get sex.  To sit there and go through the whole bullshit of "where are you from" when you know thatÕs not really what youÕre wanting to ask.  Nobody has the balls to say, "IÕm really horny and I think youÕre really cute and IÕd like to have sex with you."  ThatÕs why I think escorting is still around and so amazing.  IÕve paid for sex and IÕve had a lot of good experiences and a lot of bad experiences.

R:  YouÕve had a lot of bad experiences too?

S:  Oh absolutely.  I find, in New York only, I definately am not stereotyping but, a lot of the New York LatinÕs are married.  I enjoy LatinÕs I have tried them more, and theyÕre either completely yes or completely no.  TheyÕre either fuck goddesses from hell where they love to fuck or they love to have sex and are very sexual and sensuous or theyÕre totally the opposite.  They lay there and you literally have to ask him to pick up his arm so you could get to his dick to suck his dick. But on the other hand itÕs been amazing.

R:  Do you hire a lot of the same hustlers?

S:  Yes, I do.  Sometimes these people, because I am hopefully a little younger and still attractive, have given me their numbers and I really donÕt have to pay for them any more.  We just become sex buddies.  We call each other and say IÕm horny come over and heÕll be over in a half an hour and weÕll have sex.  Then heÕll get his pants on and say IÕm working tomorrow or I just bought this CD and heÕll walk out.

R:  Now how common do you think it is, people that hire hustlers and also hustle?

S:  I donÕt think IÕm the exception.  I think most escorts hire just as well.

R:  I would think it would be one or the other, you would either pay for sex or vice versa.

S:  Actually a lot has to do with drugs.

R:  Why?

S:  Because when youÕre on drugs you get more horny.  YouÕre more susceptible to wanting somebody over.  You want exactly what you want and you want it now.  And if you have the money to buy drugs, then you have the money to hire hustlers.  You want somebody to come over, have sex and leave your house.  So the drugs make you want escorts.

R:  And a lot of hustlers do drugs.

S:  Absolutely.

R:  Do you do drugs?

S:  Absolutely.  I believe drugs should be legal.

R:  What kind of drugs do you do?

S:  I only do cocaine.  IÕve smoked pot before and IÕve tried a couple other things like crystal.  I think people should be able to do whatever they want to their bodies and put into their bodies whatever they want as long as it doesnÕt negatively affect someone else.  IÕm in the comfort of my home, I buy it with my money and the person is letting me buy it.  I donÕt hurt anyone.  It goes in my system and it makes me feel very good for awhile and I come off of it.  My body lets me understand that you come off of it and you have responsibilities.  There are certain people who canÕt handle drugs, but there are also people who canÕt handle alcohol thatÕs totally legal.  So if the government says, well weÕre gonna let people have alcohol and let them decide whether they can handle it or not, why donÕt they let people have drugs?

R:  Are you addicted?

S:  I am probably addicted.  But I know how to regulate it.  I know when I have a hundred dollars in my pocket to say, you know what Steven, you have to eat on that money and you have to get through the next amount of days until you make more money, so stop at that point.  I donÕt do drugs unless I have a large sum of money in my account to be able to enjoy myself while IÕm on a drug.

R:  So you donÕt do it on a daily basis?

S:  Absolutely not.

R:  You donÕt live on coke?

S:  I would never.  My body lets me understand that I can regulate it.  I know my responsibilities.

R:  You say youÕre addicted and yet you go for a month without it or you go for three weeks without it?

S:  Addiction doesnÕt mean every day.  Addiction means you get the craving, regardless of how severe it is.

R:  Could you ever say, "IÕm never gonna do coke again?"

S:   Probably not, but I could definately decide the time that I want to do it.  I could go for a very long time without it.

R:  So you have a lot of self control?

S:  Absolutely.  I think self control is the most important.

R:  What about sex?  How long could you go without sex?

S:  I could go for the rest of my life without sex.  IÕm not addicted to sex.  I think of things that turn me on twenty-four hours a day.  I think of rubbing my nose in a manÕs hairy chest probably every five minutes.  I think of the way a manÕs underarm looks when he puts his arms up in the air every five seconds.  I think of how beautiful a goatee looks on a Latin or how beautiful a muscle on an arm or a muscle on the leg of a man looks.  I think about that all the time.  But the thought of intercourse, of laying down in bed with somebody doesnÕt.

R:  So youÕre saying that you could go the rest of your life without sex but you couldnÕt go the rest of your life without having your face in someone elseÕs chest?

S:  Probably not, no.

R:  So youÕre defining sex as intercourse.  But these other things are what?

S:  I define sex as someone cumming.  "Fooling around" is not sex.  Fooling around is kissing and touching and maybe even licking.  When you start sucking and the guy cums, or you start intercourse and the guy cums, or you jerk off and you cum, thatÕs sex.  You can have sex with yourself.  You can watch a porno and you can jerk off, look at a magazine and jerk off, thatÕs sex.  I think ejaculation is sex.

R:  But fooling around is not sex to you?

S:  No, and I like to fool around.

R:  ThatÕs the thing you need, more than anything?

S:  Yeah.  But I love to have sex, sure.

R:  You do love to have sex?

S:  Sure.  I love to have sex, but I could go without it.

R:  So you hustle and you do drugs occasionally.  How much would you say your life is about drugs and sex?  Would you say like fifty percent of your day?

S:  Well letÕs just say, being an escort and having that phone sit there and is the most nerve wracking, aggitating feeling.  Laying in your shorts in your home, watching a movie, biting into a steak, getting a drink out of the refrigerator, or sitting down to feed your cats, knowing that any second that phone is going to ring and you could be throwing on your jeans, slicking back your hair and going and fucking a man, immediately.  ItÕs a very strange feeling.

R:  Twenty-four hours a day?

S:  I have been in that position before where I needed the money so bad that is was twenty-four hours a day. But now I set a little bit of money aside to know that I donÕt have to go do that call.  ItÕs extra money, but I donÕt have to.

R:  What else do you do with your time besides escort?

S:  I have a music collection and I also run a small business of autograph collecting.  And I personally go chase down celebrities.  So my day consists of either getting up at six a.m. and going to get a celebrity at a live talk show, TV show, or getting up and looking at Philip and arguing over what movie to see.

R:  You go to the movies every day?

S:  I go to the movies probably every other day, or every I go shopping for CDs, I go magazine shopping, I go see plays and shows, I go over to peopleÕs houses and fool around with them and sex.  I enjoy walking around the city because I think the convenience of it is amazing.  I love the fact that down at the bottom of my building is a grocery store, a toy store, a sex porno store.  We get up and we get dressed every morning and look at each other and say, "What do you want to do today?"  And he says, "I want this CD that IÕve been looking for, for the past three days."  And IÕll say, "ThereÕs a show that I wanna go see."  WeÕll go buy the CD and weÕll time it out where weÕll go see the show and we get home at five, six, seven in the evening.  And weÕll sit at home and IÕll cook dinner and we sit around and wait for a call to come in the evening.  So it works out really well.

R:  Calls always come in the evening?

S:  Morning calls are usually people on drugs, or that have stayed up all night long and they want somebody.  Early afternoon are people on lunch breaks, men who are married to women who fly into the city for business, who take lunch breaks and want to go to a hotel and fool around really quick.  Most calls donÕt last an hour, itÕs an hourly rate, but they probably last a half an hour at the most.  And then evening calls are very on and off.  A lot donÕt work out, they get a lot pickier.  ItÕs just something about the night time.

R:  So you consider yourself on from six to two in the morning?

S:  Basically.

R:  So you actually have a pretty simple life?

S:  A very simple life.

R:  Are you happy?

S:  I am extremely content with my life because I get along and IÕm open with my family.  It makes me feel good inside.  They know I escort.  They joke about sex with me.  I have a couple of goals I wanna finish in my life.  But if they donÕt work out, they donÕt work out, itÕs no big deal.  I donÕt take life way seriously at all.  Gotta have a sense of humor in life, itÕs the most important part of a person.

R:  Do you think youÕll hustle forever?

S:  I will hustle until IÕm ugly.  The money is ridiculous.

R:  Have yo ever had problems with the police?

S:  My lover was arrested in a police sting.  Quality of life Guiliani.  The way of getting around it is when you go into a place and you donÕt know whether theyÕre a cop or not, you say, "Take off your clothes and get comfortable."  If they take off their clothes, theyÕre not a cop.  They are allowed to lie to you.  A lot of escorts donÕt think that theyÕre allowed to, they think thatÕs entrapment.  ItÕs not.  They are allowed to lie and say theyÕre not a police officer.  A police officer will ask you, "Okay will you get fucked for a hundred and fifty dollars?"  They will try to ask you that question exactly that way, so they can state exactly that youÕre fooling around for money.  The way to get around that is donÕt even respond to that question.  Say, "You know what, why donÕt you get comfortable?  WeÕll discuss that later."  And if they donÕt agree to those terms, theyÕre more than likely a cop.  And then you just walk out.

R:  How frequent are stings?

S:  Once a year.  ItÕs not a big deal.

R:  So youÕre not gonna spend all this time in jail?

S:  Absolutely not.  Matter of fact, the police officer who arrested my lover, called him afterwards because he in fact is gay and wanted to get to know my lover better.  I got on the phone and cussed the police out and I hung up on him.  And then I got to thinking, well I need is for my escort agency to be completely attacked by this one cop, who really could get me in jail for many, many years.  So I called him back and apologized and he understood.  He was very nice.

R:  So did you guys ever get together and have sex with this cop?

S:  Never, but I have had sex with a cop before.

R:  How did you meet the cop?

S:  I went to a party of two guys that I met during gay pride.  Actually gay pride was very interesting because I met these guys who were talking to two other guys, and right after the parade all five of us went to one of their apartments, which was miraculously nearby.  At the time I was a strict bottom and I loved to get fucked.   Anyway, we walk into the apartment and they lined up and they all fucked me, one by one, after each one of them were finished they jumped in the shower. I kept in touch with two of them and had sex with them on and off.

R:  So they were all tops?

S:  All four of them were tops.  Now, to get back to the cop I met, the two guys that I kept in touch with became really nice friends of mine.  And one of them was having a birthday party and invited me and my new lover out to Queens.  Everybody got drunk at the place and one of them just so happened to be a cop.  And he took us outside, my lover and me, and we sucked the cop off, right outside on the steps.  And he came in my mouth, stood up, pulled his pants back up and went back into the party.  I fooled around with a couple of other guys there.  I remember being passed out on someoneÕs bed and hearing someone say to my lover, "IÕm gonna go in the bedroom and fool around with your boyfriend."  And my lover was like, "Go ahead."  So this guy came in and fucked me, while I was passed out, I didnÕt even move.  After he came, he stood up, pulled up his pants and went back out in the party.  Then I woke up and went back to the party, myself.

R:  How many men do you think youÕve had sex with in your life?

S:  Oh my God.  IÕve estimated that when I first came to New York I was having sex with six people a day, for probably about a year and a half.  Then I had a low time where I was with one guy and we never fooled around with anybody but maybe one or two guys, thatÕs the one that beat me.  And then my new lover and I escorting again about three and a half years ago.  Having sex with them about two to six times a week.  So, whatever that amounts to?  ItÕs a lot.

R:  Thousands of men?

S:  Definately.

R:  What did you think your life would be when you were young and people asked you what you wanted to be when you grew up?

S:  What I wanted to be when I was in elementary school was an artist.  And when I was in middle school and high school I wanted to sing.  Socially, I dated a lot of girls.  I had sex with probably eight or nine girls.  One of which, like I said, I was engaged to.  And I remember one time we skipped school and we drove down a street and I fucked her.  I came ten times.

R:  So youÕve always been really sexual?

S:  IÕve always been sexual my whole life.

R:  WhatÕs missing from your life?

S:  Missing from my life?  I guarantee no matter what it takes I will become some sort of entertainer.  A singer.  I will sing, my voice is too good.  IÕm sorry thatÕs conceited, but I know when thereÕs a talent in someone.  I was thrown into the senior class when I was a freshman because I drew so well.  Seniors would come up to me and say, "Steven, what do you think of this?"  And I would give my stupid little freshman opinion.  But I scanned and I scoped it out, people who I knew had talent.

R:  YouÕd like to become a singer?

S:  IÕd like to become, yes.  But whatÕs missing?  Nothing, really.  IÕd like to be a little closer to my father, but the faultÕs not on my side.  And itÕs not because IÕm gay, itÕs because my father is an alcoholic.  I would like to be able to speak more about what I do in my life to him.  But nobody in my family can speak that much to him because heÕs just not interested.  I would love to be able to speak to him more about sex, about things happening in my life.  When my mother dies, IÕll probably end up killing myself.  ThatÕs how close I am to her.

R:  How serious is that statement?

S:  ItÕs very serious, because of how much my mother is involved in my life.  I can speak to her about hemmoroids, about crabs, about cocaine getting clogged in my nose, about how Philip and I argued over how done my steak was.  I can speak to her about any aspect of my life and she will respond and say she loves me.  WeÕre just too close.  And when she goes, I know IÕm either going to go crazy or I will go.  And my lover knows it and heÕs very worried.

R:  How old is your mom?

S:  My mother is forty-nine.  She goes to work at six a.m. and gets off at three in the evening.  She comes home, takes her smock off, sits down and smokes a cigarette and has a cup of coffe.  She fixes my dad a sandwich and they sit side by side and watch television until evening.  And sheÕll smoke another cigarette and have another cup of coffee and sheÕll go back into the bedroom, turn on the TV and lay in bed until she falls asleep or turns off the TV.  SheÕll wake up in the morning and do it all over again.  Every day of her life.

R:  Did you grow up poor?

S:  I grew up poor at certain times.  There was a time where for dinner I would eat sugar toast with butter and beans, everyday.  But then also there was a time where eventually my mother and father got on their feet enough to where we had every luxury we wanted.

R:  So is material stuff really important to you?

S:  Material stuff is extremely important to me because of two reasons.  One was because growing up my mother didnÕt have it, and when she has it now, she really takes care of it.  Two is because my relationship that I had with my lover, the one that beat me, a lot of my stuff got destroyed.  My artwork got ripped up and thrown down steps, a brand new vase that we bought got completely crushed, televisions got picked up and thrown out windows.  I think our bed got broken because we would attack each other on the bed.  Now that IÕm with my new lover, when I buy something it is extremely important because my money came out of my pocket because I wanted it in my life.  Material things are very important to me because itÕs mine.

R:  Do you send money to your parents or are they fine now?

S:   My mother is the type of person where she finishes the bottle of perfume and sheÕll keep the bottle on her dresser just so sheÕll feel like she has a little bit more than what she had.  She loves to fix herself up because she never used to.  Before, I didnÕt send my family any money, but I always bought them little gifts every time I went back.  Cause I know I had it a little bit better than they do.  Just now recently, my mother lost her job after twenty years of working at a fast food/souvenir shop called StuffyÕs.  So recently, yeah, IÕve been sending money.

R:  Is she really traumatized by it?

S:  SheÕs nervous.  Change in my motherÕs life is very scary.  Her children are all she has.  When my first sister left the house she wasnÕt too good, then my second sister left and she was okay, my mom was not too devastated.  But then when I left, she wrote a letter to me and put it in my suitcase that said, now her three children are gone.  She has no life and her three children are all that she has in her life because my father and her werenÕt very close.  They loved each other, but they donÕt do much.  So when I first moved to New York, I made it a point to every thirty day go back, every single month I would take money and go back home.  And thatÕs one reason why sheÕs traumatized, because she has nobody there with her.

R:  So how often do you talk to her?

S:  I talk to her every two days.  My phone bills rack.

R:  Have you ever brought her up to Manhattan?

S:  SheÕs come up three times.

R:  Did she like it?

S:  She loves it, says itÕs a little too fast for her.  We went to all the tourist places.  I always pay for dinner when they come, always pay for everything when they come.  I love giving them things and I love sharing my money.  I definately am the least stingy person.  Money is stupid, you should make people happy and enjoy money while you have it.

R:  Do you go to any shows or anything?

S:  I love shows.

R:  Did you take your mom to any shows when she was out?

S:  No, believe it or not, I just called her two days ago and she has never seen a stage show in her life.

R:  Never?

S:  Never, never, never.  And I wanted to bring her to God Said Ha!  Because itÕs about breast cancer and my mom recently was diagnosed with breast cancer.

R:  You should bring her out and see that show.

S:  I will.

R:  So youÕre twenty-four and you have money, a lover, sex when you want, drugs when you want, do you ever feel like youÕve gotten to where you wanted to be much earlier than you ever thought you would?

S:  ThatÕs one scary thing that I think about.  Just the fact that of coming from Virginia and getting to New York is an accomplishment and I canÕt believe I did it.  People donÕt get out of cities like that.

R:  But you donÕt seem obsessed with the future?

S:  IÕm not.  Enjoy yourself, tomorrow, today, right now, when I leave this place I could walk out and there could be a serial gunman and he could blow me away.  Be happy in every single thing that you do.  Make sure that itÕs always because you wanna do it. When I lay down for sex with these men IÕm wanting to.  Whether theyÕre old and fat and smelly and stinky or gorgeous, I want to do it or I would not do it.  I donÕt do anything in my life that I donÕt personally want to do.

R:  Do you think a lot of thatÕs come out because of the fact that you were beaten in a relationship for a long time?

S:  Probably.   He controlled me a lot.  He told me what friends to have, where to go, and when to go, and what money to bring and he held the money, and he did what he wanted, and I was always that one step behind saying, "You know, IÕm the wife and IÕm here for you and IÕll do this for you."

R:  So you donÕt think about the next twenty years of your life?

S:  Absolutely not.  ItÕs a waste of time cause you canÕt control that.  You canÕt control what happens in twenty years.  So why not control what youÕre doing right now?  And totally be in control of it and say this is what I wanna do right now.  ThatÕs the way I think. Like literally, if youÕre snorting a line of coke, sit there and look at it and go, "You know what?  I bought that.  And I am wanting to do that."  Or when you open up a pack of cookies, damn that fucking cookieÕs good and I wanna eat that cookie.  You know?  DonÕt take it for granted, do it if you like it and you want it.  DonÕt let someone else say, "You know you really should go do this."  Because if you do something you donÕt like, youÕre wasting that moment in time, youÕll never get that time back.  Because tomorrow or today or two seconds from now you could be dead.  And youÕre thinking, "Shit, I shouldÕve been doing what I wanted to be doing."

R:  Does your lover share your life view?

S:  Yes.  All my views, he shares them.

R:  Did he share them before or after he met you?

S:  I changed my lover the way that first guy from the Museum of Modern Art, David,  changed me.

R:  So what, if anything, do you hate about yourself?

S:  What do I hate about myself?  I honestly couldnÕt say.

R:  Nothing about you bothers you?

S:  ThereÕs things IÕd like to fix.  IÕd love to be a little bit more toned.  I would love to be even more financially stable.  ItÕs hard and you could go for five days of not having a call and you think to yourself, "Wow, you know the last work I did was five days ago.  IÕm running out of money here.  But I know I have family to back me up."

R:  So youÕre pretty much hand to mouth?

S:  Sure, because I enjoy my life so much that I run out and I blow my money.

R:  You donÕt know how to hold onto money?

S:  I do not hold money.  I know how, but I donÕt.

R:  Whatever you have in your pocket you spend?

S:  You better believe it.

R:  Is your lover like that too?

S:  Of course.  HeÕs a little more nervous when he gets down a little bit.  HeÕs, "I gotta work, gotta work, letÕs stay home tonight."  IÕm like, "Screw that, I want that CD and IÕm buying it."  We run low on money, but we always get by.

R:  It always comes through for you?

S:  Sure.

R:  Now, I donÕt know, this is a difficult subject because youÕve had so much sex, but what about STDs?  You mentioned crabs earlier.

S:  Yes.  IÕve had crabs, IÕve had gonnorhea, IÕve had warts, hemmoroids.

R:  YouÕve had it all?

S:  Yeah, IÕve had a lot.

R:  Does it scare you?

S:  No, it doesnÕt scare me.

R:  You grew up in the age of safe sex though?

S:  I grew up in the age of safe, but that doesnÕt mean I knew about it.  Growing up through high school I never once heard about condoms.  ItÕs just ridiculous, you just donÕt hear about it.

R:  So who taught you about condoms?

S:  The gay and lesbian community in New York.

R:  Do you still have unprotected sex?

S:  Yes, I do.

R:  Why?

S:  Why?  My personal opinion about it is every time I think I will protect myself and I do, then when I come to a point sexually where I feel comfortable in my head, whether heÕs lying or not, I donÕt.  I really donÕt worry about it.  I lived for the moment and if I get it, I get it.  Not to say that IÕm gonna go out and have it because I donÕt give a shit.  I hope somebody understands what IÕm trying to explain.  But if it comes a time where I do get it, IÕll deal with it.  IÕll take care of it and IÕll die.

R:  Do you get tested?

S:  I get tested every six months.  Regular as the clock ticks.

R:  So you feel pretty confident, or do you think you will get it eventually?

S:  No, I donÕt think IÕll get it.  Not to say that I canÕt.  Please IÕm not ignorant, I might be dumb.

R:  Do you let guys cum in you?

S:  No, absolutely not.

R:  So thatÕs where you draw the line?

S:  Absolutely.

R:  Do you ever let it happen?

S:  I have let it happen, but no more.

R:  Do you suck another guyÕs dick without a condom?

S:  I donÕt think IÕve ever heard of a case where someone has gotten AIDS from giving a blowjob and IÕm just not concerned with it.  ItÕs totally ridiculous and I will tell you that if I end up dying because I sucked a manÕs dick and I got AIDS from it, then oh well, I donÕt care.

R:  Do you meet a lot of people that are shocked that you let them fuck you without a condom?

S:  ThereÕs a couple of people that fuck me without a condom, and no, theyÕre not shocked.

R:  So you see a lot of unsafe sex out there?

S:  Yes, very much so.

R:  Does that concern you?

S:  It concerns me.  It concerns me when thereÕs a person sitting on a table at a sex club with their eyes closed letting people one after the other cum inside them.  It repulses me, it makes me sick to my stomach.  Because I know the odds are totally against them.

R:  Why do you think a person would do that?

S:  IÕm sure theyÕre on a good drug and they donÕt give a shit.

R:  Do you think itÕs because theyÕre positive maybe and they donÕt care?

S:  No.  I will tell you they might be and thatÕs very scary.  But I donÕt think itÕs because theyÕre positive.  I do tell them to fuck me with a condom.

R:  Most of the time you do?

S:  Most of the time I really do, probably about ninety-seven percent of the men that fuck me, fuck me with a condom.  Three percent donÕt, and that three percent are people that IÕve been fooling around with several months or years that I feel comfortable with.

R:  So those four guys that you met at the gay pride parade, did they use condoms?

S:  No.

R:  And you had just met them?

S:  But now I fool around with them everyday.

R:  Did you talk about it?

S:  No.  Actually one of them wore a condom.

R:  One of them did wear a condom?

S:  One of them did wear a condom.  The man who had the apartment.  The man who owned the apartment.  Not the two guys that I keep in touch with now.  But the one who owned the apartment did.

R:  Did the cop wear a condom?

S:  Did the cop wear a condom?  No.  Cause I only sucked him off.

R:  Oh the cop didnÕt fuck you?

S:  No.  No that was outside on the steps.  I just sucked him off.

R:  Do a lot of your clients wanna have unsafe sex?

S:  No.  Clients most always wear condoms.  And actually thatÕs really stupid, it should be vice versa.  The guys that IÕm fooling around with should be wearing it and these married men, you know?  Not that they couldnÕt have AIDS, but theyÕre more monogamous with their wife, so itÕs not as much of a risk.  Escorts and gay men are much more at a risk than straight men who are married.

R:  Do you fuck guys without a condom on?

S:  Yes.  Cause I know IÕm HIV negative, but I know you can get it that way as well.

R:  But youÕre prepared to have your test results come back positive?

S:  IÕm prepared, absolutely.

R:  YouÕre prepared for that, although itÕs never happened.  Do you know how young you are?

S:  Yes.  I feel like IÕm older.  I feel like IÕm really getting older.

R:  My God, youÕre gonna be twenty-five.

S:  Just because IÕm settled down with a lover of almost four years. I feel like IÕm old.

R:  Do you ever feel like youÕre living life in an accelerated speed?

S:  Sometimes I feel like that, but then sometimes I just pop out of it.  Like IÕm at a night club or something and IÕm going, "Holy shit, you know, people still live like this.  This is cool.  IÕm still young and moving around."

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Dominican republic-had sex with uncles-hooker-bashed a clients head in-kind of laid back

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